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<blockquote data-quote="ezo" data-source="post: 9330289" data-attributes="member: 7037866"><p>Then they should have called it a gorilla, not an ape. Ape encompasses much more than just gorilla...</p><p></p><p></p><p>That much water, even moving at 1.2 mph, is a tremedous amount of force to even more <em>with</em> let alone resist.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Probably not, of course, be as often as it might occur (who knows, right?) it would half the speed during those checks.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, DC 20 does require training an higher than average ability to accomplish. Your average person would not be able to swim a mile and not drown.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Have you <em>ever</em> swum a mile? I have, in Boy Scouts, across a lake. With people in boats going with us to help if we got cramps, became fatigued, etc. Lake currents are not nearly as strong as the current flow of a river like the Mississippi. It isn't called "The Mighty Mississippi" for nothing, you know. Lake currents are only strong IF you near a river system of a lake.</p><p></p><p>Now, lakes can be "choppy" with worse waves, of course.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I wouldn't argue those points because they don't have anything to do with the DC, as you point out. Distance determines time, and thus the number of checks. Armor simply hinders the speed.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Wrong, wrong, wrong. The DC doesn't change according to who is doing it. The DC would be 20 (or worse!). A trained swimmer who practices endurance swims, etc. would benefit from an actual bonus to the check, not +0, and would be swimming an full speed (since they are not wearing armor).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Hmm... let me think. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite24" alt=":unsure:" title="Unsure :unsure:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":unsure:" /> Yeah, probably more familiar with them then you are. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p>Yep, moved goalposts. You said:</p><p></p><p>Nothing there about the distance you want him to travel, is there? 8 hour march in rough terrain (rough = difficult, right? I mean, they <em>are</em> synonyms...) would only be 12 miles, not 24 anyway. And, you don't actually think it is 8 hours moving constantly, right? It is 8 hours in the course of the day of travelling, which includes periods of rest, eating, etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, not immediately. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>I simply brought it up because it IS in the rules (not like a houserule or anything) and there explicitly for groups who want more detailed rules for how weight hinders movement. It is still "simple" but not overly simplified as the baseline RAW.</p><p></p><p>I mean, am I not allowed to bring up valid points about how the game was designed???</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, baseline IS forgiving, which is fine if you want to keep your game simple. I didn't immediate go to it, and it is there for a reason.</p><p></p><p>Humans IRL can accomplish things 1st level human fighters can't by RAW. Look at weight-lifting competitions. The most a PC can LIFT in RAW is 30 x STR. At 1st level, max human strength is 18, 20 if you allow the floating +2 ASI. That is 600 lbs, which is pathetic compared to real life world records...</p><p></p><p>Honestly, we BOTH know the rules aren't meant to express real life or simulate it. They are an approximation at best for a game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>LOL I'm having fun, aren't you? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. But what seems plausible to one person often isn't to another. Which is the issue as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p>True. That is my approach. However, plausible also stretches beyond real world for me. People can do INCREDIBLE things IRL, so going a bit further makes it fantasy for me, without necessarily being "magical" or "superhuman".</p><p></p><p>For example, a rogue leaping over 40 feet from the roof on one side of the street to another roof on the other side is certainly beyond real life, but in a fantasy setting it is something I can certainly imagine.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, level of capacity is part of plausibility for me, too. The problem is comparing game designed creatures, rules, and systems to real-life facts. They rarely ever work out to be even close to each other.</p><p></p><p>Now, I mentioned the leaping rogue above. But I never mentioned his level, ability scores, or anything else. If it is plausible to me, I imagine he has whatever capacity is necessary for the task. But speaking of jumping, the rules don't allow for a PC to do a 30-foot running long jump without having a "magical/mystical" feature, such as Step of the Wind.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ezo, post: 9330289, member: 7037866"] Then they should have called it a gorilla, not an ape. Ape encompasses much more than just gorilla... That much water, even moving at 1.2 mph, is a tremedous amount of force to even more [I]with[/I] let alone resist. Probably not, of course, be as often as it might occur (who knows, right?) it would half the speed during those checks. Yes, DC 20 does require training an higher than average ability to accomplish. Your average person would not be able to swim a mile and not drown. Have you [I]ever[/I] swum a mile? I have, in Boy Scouts, across a lake. With people in boats going with us to help if we got cramps, became fatigued, etc. Lake currents are not nearly as strong as the current flow of a river like the Mississippi. It isn't called "The Mighty Mississippi" for nothing, you know. Lake currents are only strong IF you near a river system of a lake. Now, lakes can be "choppy" with worse waves, of course. Well, I wouldn't argue those points because they don't have anything to do with the DC, as you point out. Distance determines time, and thus the number of checks. Armor simply hinders the speed. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The DC doesn't change according to who is doing it. The DC would be 20 (or worse!). A trained swimmer who practices endurance swims, etc. would benefit from an actual bonus to the check, not +0, and would be swimming an full speed (since they are not wearing armor). Hmm... let me think. :unsure: Yeah, probably more familiar with them then you are. :P Yep, moved goalposts. You said: Nothing there about the distance you want him to travel, is there? 8 hour march in rough terrain (rough = difficult, right? I mean, they [I]are[/I] synonyms...) would only be 12 miles, not 24 anyway. And, you don't actually think it is 8 hours moving constantly, right? It is 8 hours in the course of the day of travelling, which includes periods of rest, eating, etc. Well, not immediately. ;) I simply brought it up because it IS in the rules (not like a houserule or anything) and there explicitly for groups who want more detailed rules for how weight hinders movement. It is still "simple" but not overly simplified as the baseline RAW. I mean, am I not allowed to bring up valid points about how the game was designed??? Well, baseline IS forgiving, which is fine if you want to keep your game simple. I didn't immediate go to it, and it is there for a reason. Humans IRL can accomplish things 1st level human fighters can't by RAW. Look at weight-lifting competitions. The most a PC can LIFT in RAW is 30 x STR. At 1st level, max human strength is 18, 20 if you allow the floating +2 ASI. That is 600 lbs, which is pathetic compared to real life world records... Honestly, we BOTH know the rules aren't meant to express real life or simulate it. They are an approximation at best for a game. LOL I'm having fun, aren't you? :D Yes. But what seems plausible to one person often isn't to another. Which is the issue as well. True. That is my approach. However, plausible also stretches beyond real world for me. People can do INCREDIBLE things IRL, so going a bit further makes it fantasy for me, without necessarily being "magical" or "superhuman". For example, a rogue leaping over 40 feet from the roof on one side of the street to another roof on the other side is certainly beyond real life, but in a fantasy setting it is something I can certainly imagine. Sure, level of capacity is part of plausibility for me, too. The problem is comparing game designed creatures, rules, and systems to real-life facts. They rarely ever work out to be even close to each other. Now, I mentioned the leaping rogue above. But I never mentioned his level, ability scores, or anything else. If it is plausible to me, I imagine he has whatever capacity is necessary for the task. But speaking of jumping, the rules don't allow for a PC to do a 30-foot running long jump without having a "magical/mystical" feature, such as Step of the Wind. [/QUOTE]
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