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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9333145" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>I don't think I called anyone any names and if you want to put your points in copnstitution do that, but in a pB or SA game you are making a purposeful decision to be bad at the non-combat pillars when you do that. The only classes that can be good at all 3 pillars while investing heavily in Constitution are Bard, Rogue and Ranger (and only Ranger because of the Fey Wanderer), other casters can manage two at a time while having a high (16) con at start.</p><p></p><p>As a point of fact it is not necessary to invest in Constitution to survive in a game designed according to the counter balance guideling. That is fact. That doesn't mean you will always survive as a luck has something to do with it, but RAW 5E combat is EASY and statistically you are not likely to die because you chose a 10 constitution instead of a 14.</p><p></p><p>If you make a point buy Wizard with a 16 Constitution, and she is not going to be good at all 3 pillars at all 20 levels.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You claimed fighters can't do specific things and they can do all of them (although not necessarily at the same time)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is not the one I am talking about. I am talkinbg about the common and often repeated fallacy that a fighter cna only be good at hitting one target.</p><p></p><p>As I have said over and over again, that is just a patently false statement.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Eldritch Knight. If you want to play another subclass the only way I know of is to take Arcana proficiency or smiths tools proficiency and make a helm of telepathy.</p><p></p><p>However, the same is true for casters. What if I want my Wizard to cast Silence or my Cleric to cast Vortex Warp?</p><p></p><p>Those two simple examples are actually more difficult than getting Suggestion on a fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Build choices to get it!</p><p></p><p>You are complaining that other classes get to cast spells and do these things, you want your fighter to be able to do these things like those other classes do ..... but you don't want to cast spells.</p><p></p><p>If you want your fighter to cast suggesting build a fighter that has access to suggestion and 2nd level spells.</p><p></p><p>I don't think your complaint has any merit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure different classes have different core abilities.</p><p></p><p>A Bard who choses to do this gives up a spell known and nothing else. It is relatively low cost. A fighter gives up a feat or picks a specific subclass.</p><p></p><p>But a Bard needs to run a 12 Constitution to get 6hps per level and a Bard needs to pick a specific subclass to get extra attack, gets it later, and never gets 3 attacks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Many, many more people (virtually the entire population) has survived being burned. I have been burned more times than I can count, most recently on Saturday. I have never been shot with an arrow and I can't imagine being even grazed with an arrow is going to be more damaging than a 1st degree burn and the vast majority of 2nd degree burns.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is not a problem at all. It is freedom. It is choice and play fighters often.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The benefit is playing the character you want to play. If you want to play a character without any magic, then having an option to choose a character without any magic is a benefit.</p><p></p><p>As long as your character is viable, being better or worse is irrelevant if your goals are based on the character thematics.</p><p></p><p>Now if your goal is to be powerful then being weak is a problem, but it is one easily remedied by making a powerful character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no way to increase the chance of an enemy failing a save when they use legendary resistance or when they are immune to the condition your<em> "instant combat ender"</em> causes.</p><p></p><p>As someone who has played a lot at high level (15+) over the last 2 years, I can say confidently that damage is the best way to bring down many enemies. At high levels there are a lot of enemies fighters (even those with low constitution) excel at battling.</p><p></p><p>When those spells are effective, they are effective but when they are not they are near useless.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>???? Then what is the problem?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This happens all the time IME. Teleport, Fly, Calm emotions, various healing spells .....</p><p></p><p>There are all kinds of spell selections that affect the choices of other characters in a team game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As a reminder, what I said was <em>"every class can do impossible things by 11th level"</em></p><p></p><p>So yes you are agreeing with me and impossible things are not unique to spells, casters or magic. All classes can do impossible things, like I said!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>RAW is RAW. If your DM is not playing RAW, then I don't know what to tell you.</p><p></p><p>Arguing over how DMs implement homebrew is not of much value IMO.</p><p></p><p>More importantly, as noted above all characters can do impossible things by level 11. This is not unique to spellcasters. If your DM curbs that then that is specific to your game and not reflective of class abilities.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually I have played 2 games in the last year where it explicitly solved a problem (Rise of the Drow and Rime of the Frostmaiden) .... or at least enabled survival.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Feats are part of the base class.</p><p></p><p>I will also point out that casters do not have any specific spells or specific abilities that spells enable as part of the base class. They actually need to choose spells before they can do these "impossible" things. Non-casters have similar choices they can make to do additional "impossible" things. A smaller less diverse subset of choices, but choices just the same.</p><p></p><p>No Wizard has the ability to cast suggestion and no Bard has the ability to read minds as part of the "base class". They need to make choices to enable that. Similarly a Fighter could make choices to enable either of those two things.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, if a fighter wants to cast spells they need to get spells. I think that is pretty obvious.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I never said that. What I said is all classes can do impossible things at 11th level, and that statement is 100% true.</p><p></p><p>You are trying to put words into my mouth.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure you can optimize and build Clerics that are great at melee. This is what is great about 5E.</p><p></p><p>Druids are a lot harder if you want them to be great across all 20 levels. They can be really good from about 2-8 and then again at high level. They are going to be mediocre in the middle though.</p><p></p><p>Niether of those two caster will be good at all three pillars though and niether of them will be as good at melee as a fighter who is optimized for that.</p><p></p><p>To be better at melee at most levels than a fighter optimized for melee you need to play a Wizard, Ranger or multiclass.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We can already do that. Fighters get feats and feats do this. Why is that unacceptable?</p><p></p><p>Also I hate the weapon mastery system developed for ONE.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9333145, member: 7030563"] I don't think I called anyone any names and if you want to put your points in copnstitution do that, but in a pB or SA game you are making a purposeful decision to be bad at the non-combat pillars when you do that. The only classes that can be good at all 3 pillars while investing heavily in Constitution are Bard, Rogue and Ranger (and only Ranger because of the Fey Wanderer), other casters can manage two at a time while having a high (16) con at start. As a point of fact it is not necessary to invest in Constitution to survive in a game designed according to the counter balance guideling. That is fact. That doesn't mean you will always survive as a luck has something to do with it, but RAW 5E combat is EASY and statistically you are not likely to die because you chose a 10 constitution instead of a 14. If you make a point buy Wizard with a 16 Constitution, and she is not going to be good at all 3 pillars at all 20 levels. You claimed fighters can't do specific things and they can do all of them (although not necessarily at the same time) It is not the one I am talking about. I am talkinbg about the common and often repeated fallacy that a fighter cna only be good at hitting one target. As I have said over and over again, that is just a patently false statement. Eldritch Knight. If you want to play another subclass the only way I know of is to take Arcana proficiency or smiths tools proficiency and make a helm of telepathy. However, the same is true for casters. What if I want my Wizard to cast Silence or my Cleric to cast Vortex Warp? Those two simple examples are actually more difficult than getting Suggestion on a fighter. Build choices to get it! You are complaining that other classes get to cast spells and do these things, you want your fighter to be able to do these things like those other classes do ..... but you don't want to cast spells. If you want your fighter to cast suggesting build a fighter that has access to suggestion and 2nd level spells. I don't think your complaint has any merit. Sure different classes have different core abilities. A Bard who choses to do this gives up a spell known and nothing else. It is relatively low cost. A fighter gives up a feat or picks a specific subclass. But a Bard needs to run a 12 Constitution to get 6hps per level and a Bard needs to pick a specific subclass to get extra attack, gets it later, and never gets 3 attacks. Many, many more people (virtually the entire population) has survived being burned. I have been burned more times than I can count, most recently on Saturday. I have never been shot with an arrow and I can't imagine being even grazed with an arrow is going to be more damaging than a 1st degree burn and the vast majority of 2nd degree burns. It is not a problem at all. It is freedom. It is choice and play fighters often. The benefit is playing the character you want to play. If you want to play a character without any magic, then having an option to choose a character without any magic is a benefit. As long as your character is viable, being better or worse is irrelevant if your goals are based on the character thematics. Now if your goal is to be powerful then being weak is a problem, but it is one easily remedied by making a powerful character. There is no way to increase the chance of an enemy failing a save when they use legendary resistance or when they are immune to the condition your[I] "instant combat ender"[/I] causes. As someone who has played a lot at high level (15+) over the last 2 years, I can say confidently that damage is the best way to bring down many enemies. At high levels there are a lot of enemies fighters (even those with low constitution) excel at battling. When those spells are effective, they are effective but when they are not they are near useless. ???? Then what is the problem? This happens all the time IME. Teleport, Fly, Calm emotions, various healing spells ..... There are all kinds of spell selections that affect the choices of other characters in a team game. As a reminder, what I said was [I]"every class can do impossible things by 11th level"[/I] So yes you are agreeing with me and impossible things are not unique to spells, casters or magic. All classes can do impossible things, like I said! RAW is RAW. If your DM is not playing RAW, then I don't know what to tell you. Arguing over how DMs implement homebrew is not of much value IMO. More importantly, as noted above all characters can do impossible things by level 11. This is not unique to spellcasters. If your DM curbs that then that is specific to your game and not reflective of class abilities. Actually I have played 2 games in the last year where it explicitly solved a problem (Rise of the Drow and Rime of the Frostmaiden) .... or at least enabled survival. Feats are part of the base class. I will also point out that casters do not have any specific spells or specific abilities that spells enable as part of the base class. They actually need to choose spells before they can do these "impossible" things. Non-casters have similar choices they can make to do additional "impossible" things. A smaller less diverse subset of choices, but choices just the same. No Wizard has the ability to cast suggestion and no Bard has the ability to read minds as part of the "base class". They need to make choices to enable that. Similarly a Fighter could make choices to enable either of those two things. Yes, if a fighter wants to cast spells they need to get spells. I think that is pretty obvious. I never said that. What I said is all classes can do impossible things at 11th level, and that statement is 100% true. You are trying to put words into my mouth. Sure you can optimize and build Clerics that are great at melee. This is what is great about 5E. Druids are a lot harder if you want them to be great across all 20 levels. They can be really good from about 2-8 and then again at high level. They are going to be mediocre in the middle though. Niether of those two caster will be good at all three pillars though and niether of them will be as good at melee as a fighter who is optimized for that. To be better at melee at most levels than a fighter optimized for melee you need to play a Wizard, Ranger or multiclass. We can already do that. Fighters get feats and feats do this. Why is that unacceptable? Also I hate the weapon mastery system developed for ONE. [/QUOTE]
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