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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9333540" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Because having a high con prevents the wizard from taking spells?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>THe difference between a martial character and a spellcaster, is the access to spells. IF the only way you can be good at social and exploration is spells, then even if the martial character can figure out how to get spells, then we have a problem in the design, because it inidicates that the design is not equitable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, those things are useful, but it isn't like the Wizard or the Cleric don't have other useful spells. This isn't about "how do I get suggestion on my fighter" (Which would take being level 13, when the other full casters got it at level 5) it is about how the answer is always "get the right spell"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why not? The fighter has NOTHING that the other classes are can't get within their own design space. Again and again, the solution proposed to any problem is to get the correct spell, but no wizard ever looks at the fighter and goes "how can I do that?" Because... they CAN do that. And doing so costs so little for them, that they can additionally do a bunch of other things.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But the Barbarian and the Paladin also don't get 3 attacks. And I thought that dropping Con was fine? A 12 Con is nothing. I pretty much never see ANY character with less than a 12 con. </p><p></p><p>And meanwhile, the Lore Bard or the Creation Bard... are still good in combat. Sure, they aren't stellar in melee combat, but they can alter the entire flow of a fight with a single spell. Just like all other casters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Firebolt averages 5 damage. A commoner has 4 hp. Firebolt does not give you minor 1st degree burns that sting a little. You are looking at 3rd degree burns most of the time.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>IT is a problem if the best way to make a powerful character, is to be a spellcaster. That shows an issue in the design. </p><p></p><p>We need to talk about what viability looks like, because most of the time, I've found fighters and barbarians feeling like they are unable to contribute outside of combat, which gets worse for them, when the caster or the diplomacy character completely subverts the combat with a single action.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not every fight features enemies that have legendary resistance. Not every enemy is immune to every effect. And casters can still do damage, on top of their other actions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That was sarcasm. </p><p></p><p>Who would be happy to have built their entire character to excel at a specific type of challenge, to then hear the wizard say "Oh good, then I won't take X so you can your thing. I'll take Y instead". An entire build, which the wizard could have invalidated, by taking a single spell. And didn't, just to be polite.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Uh huh. Not, what martial choices affect the choices made by other characters in the team game? What martial option is equivalent to these?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, yeah. Everyone can fall off a building. </p><p></p><p>Only spellcasters can fly back up up, or collapse the building with a word, or turn the building into a monster to fight for them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So... the entire party jumped off the side of a building? Cool. How did that allow the fighter to solve a problem?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, they are an optional rule</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unless it is a featless game. You won't see a wizard or a bard in a "spell-less" game, but you can see fighters in featless games all the time. There is a big difference here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But if they want to contribute without spells... they just need to hope no one else tried to build a character who tackles social or exploration problems in any way, shape, or form.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1) Feats are optional</p><p>2) The only feats that you keep mentioning give spells. We are looking for spell-less solutions. </p><p></p><p>There also are just not feats that give the sort of benefits we are trying to get here, and making them feats opens them up to everyone, meaning that the spellcasters are still going to be able to do everything the martials can do plus more.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9333540, member: 6801228"] Because having a high con prevents the wizard from taking spells? THe difference between a martial character and a spellcaster, is the access to spells. IF the only way you can be good at social and exploration is spells, then even if the martial character can figure out how to get spells, then we have a problem in the design, because it inidicates that the design is not equitable. Sure, those things are useful, but it isn't like the Wizard or the Cleric don't have other useful spells. This isn't about "how do I get suggestion on my fighter" (Which would take being level 13, when the other full casters got it at level 5) it is about how the answer is always "get the right spell" Why not? The fighter has NOTHING that the other classes are can't get within their own design space. Again and again, the solution proposed to any problem is to get the correct spell, but no wizard ever looks at the fighter and goes "how can I do that?" Because... they CAN do that. And doing so costs so little for them, that they can additionally do a bunch of other things. But the Barbarian and the Paladin also don't get 3 attacks. And I thought that dropping Con was fine? A 12 Con is nothing. I pretty much never see ANY character with less than a 12 con. And meanwhile, the Lore Bard or the Creation Bard... are still good in combat. Sure, they aren't stellar in melee combat, but they can alter the entire flow of a fight with a single spell. Just like all other casters. Firebolt averages 5 damage. A commoner has 4 hp. Firebolt does not give you minor 1st degree burns that sting a little. You are looking at 3rd degree burns most of the time. IT is a problem if the best way to make a powerful character, is to be a spellcaster. That shows an issue in the design. We need to talk about what viability looks like, because most of the time, I've found fighters and barbarians feeling like they are unable to contribute outside of combat, which gets worse for them, when the caster or the diplomacy character completely subverts the combat with a single action. Not every fight features enemies that have legendary resistance. Not every enemy is immune to every effect. And casters can still do damage, on top of their other actions. That was sarcasm. Who would be happy to have built their entire character to excel at a specific type of challenge, to then hear the wizard say "Oh good, then I won't take X so you can your thing. I'll take Y instead". An entire build, which the wizard could have invalidated, by taking a single spell. And didn't, just to be polite. Uh huh. Not, what martial choices affect the choices made by other characters in the team game? What martial option is equivalent to these? Okay, yeah. Everyone can fall off a building. Only spellcasters can fly back up up, or collapse the building with a word, or turn the building into a monster to fight for them. So... the entire party jumped off the side of a building? Cool. How did that allow the fighter to solve a problem? No, they are an optional rule Unless it is a featless game. You won't see a wizard or a bard in a "spell-less" game, but you can see fighters in featless games all the time. There is a big difference here. But if they want to contribute without spells... they just need to hope no one else tried to build a character who tackles social or exploration problems in any way, shape, or form. 1) Feats are optional 2) The only feats that you keep mentioning give spells. We are looking for spell-less solutions. There also are just not feats that give the sort of benefits we are trying to get here, and making them feats opens them up to everyone, meaning that the spellcasters are still going to be able to do everything the martials can do plus more. [/QUOTE]
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