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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9334073" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Good lord this is a massive post. I don't mind trying to respond to a large post, but this is far too much. I'm splitting this into multiple responses, there is just no feasible way to do this and keep it readable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At level three? Not going to be much I can do, but I can still do quite a bit. </p><p></p><p>So, 16 Int, 16 Con, 13 Charisma, 12 Wisdom, 10 Dex, 8 Strength</p><p>I want to be good at everything? We'll take Deception, Perception, Stealth, and Intuition. </p><p>Race could add a few things, but I'm not building a full character, lest I be accused of cherry picking. </p><p>Spells: 3 cantrips, of which I can change one on a long rest. So, Ray of Frost, Mage Hand, and Minor Illusion for your standard day</p><p>Invisibility and Suggestion, with Find Familiar, Comprehend Languages, Magic Missile, Grease, Silent Image, Ice Knife, Sleep, Disguise Self</p><p></p><p>That is a fairly solid footing. It isn't perfect, but I AM only a 3rd level character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why are you taking Friends? All it does is give you advantage and it turns the enemy hostile. It is a horrible thing to use. Also, you are being very direct. </p><p></p><p>Disguise Self allows me to look like anyone. While the merchant might not talk to me about the recent weird disturbances, he is likely to talk to the captain of the guard, or a famous bard, or any number of other individuals. </p><p>Minor Illusion allows for you to throw your voice, and make any number of sounds. Want to freak someone out? Drag someone into the back room. Minor Illusion horrid screaming, then minor illusion a bloody rag that you minor illusion catching on fire as you walk back out. Or use Silent Image instead, to do all sorts of other things.</p><p>And if you need brute force. Suggestion. </p><p></p><p>Finally, with proficiency in deception, and an ally giving you the help action, you can not only sell these things but work to convince people of all sorts of things.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, if you need it faster than 10 minutes.. don't cast it as a ritual. But, counter-point... who else can speak or read ANY POSSIBLE language? Your paladin with a 16 cha and proficiency in persuasion is good, but if he doesn't speak goblin, it is kind of moot, he can't participate in talking to the goblin chief. And there are absolutely languages in the game that you CANNOT take. </p><p></p><p>Most DMs don't bother, but they do use ancient scripts, which also makes this good for exploration.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only scouting? The single most useful thing that you can do in the exploration pillar. Also, took inivisibility for a reason. Finding tracks is only helpful if I'm... tracking something. Which is generally pretty rare. Also, if I am tracking something, I can turn my familiar into a snake to follow its scent, or any number of other animals. And why am I identifying plants? Sure, some obscure task that requires the nature roll I'll ONLY have my high intelligence for a +3 and advantage, and my familiar can let me see through their eyes. Additionally, help action, again. Things like the familiar figuring what the plant smells like or other tasks that can help identify it, if I need to do this for whatever reason.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes they can. Climbing does not require an athletics check. Re-read the rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm level 3, how many magic traps are we dealing with? At this level we are usually dealing with mechanical traps. Also, this is why I took perception. </p><p></p><p>Also, also, this is why I took mage hand. Sure, that investigation roll might find a trap, but my mage hand rolling a 10 lbs ball on all the surfaces finds and safely triggers traps. It also counters traps on doors, traps in chests, traps under rugs, depending on how much "poke with 10 ft pole" I do, this can counter a massive variety of traps, until the DM starts specifically requiring more weight to counter. </p><p></p><p>So, even if I'm not as good at spotting traps, I can safely avoid FAR more of them. There is also the utility of the Grease spell to consider.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I did forget Detect Thoughts. PRobably drop sleep for it. While sleep is good for instances, Detect Thoughts is going to be better for a few options.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I didn't bother with shield and mage armor. Stick to distance with ray of frost. Magic Missile is good for damage, ice knife is good for AOE. Grease, SIlent Image, and Minor illusion can act as both control, and as defenses (the classic Minor Illusion a box with firing slits to give disadvantage to hit you)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A fighter good in Wisdom and Charisma? You still have the same ability scores, so to get that...</p><p></p><p>16 Str, 10 Con, 13 Charisma, 16 Wisdom, 12 Dex, 8 INT? </p><p></p><p>You can get one or the other better than the wizard I made, but not both. And that's something you missed at this whole exercise, the wizard was achieving in every field. Stealthy enough to scout, familiar boosts scouting, magic supports social interactions, and offers options impossible for the martials, and combat control and damage are still solid. </p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, you want a fighter with 16 str, 16 wis, 16 cha, as well as persuasion, insight, perception, investigation, survival, nature... and they still can't look like anyone, still can't read minds, still can't turn invisible, still can't auto-damage an enemy, still can't use illusions to deceive the enemy... </p><p></p><p>And next level? The Wizard gets two more spells. Then they get 3rd level spells, then two more of those, then 4th level spells, then two more of those. </p><p></p><p>Meanwhile the fighter... I guess they could raise their wisdom to get get another +1 on their insight, won't be as good as reading minds. They could get a +1 on their charisma for persuasion, might not help as much as looking like someone else, or allow them to communicate with someone they don't share a language with. </p><p></p><p>Sure, level 3 that fighter is doing okay. LEvel 5 even, they can still be relevant. Level 9? Level 13? And, don't forget, the wizard is also able to take feats to get more spells, scribe more spells into their spellbook, get magic items that give them more spells. Plus, I could have taken a race to get more spells and/or skills on top of what I listed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9334073, member: 6801228"] Good lord this is a massive post. I don't mind trying to respond to a large post, but this is far too much. I'm splitting this into multiple responses, there is just no feasible way to do this and keep it readable. At level three? Not going to be much I can do, but I can still do quite a bit. So, 16 Int, 16 Con, 13 Charisma, 12 Wisdom, 10 Dex, 8 Strength I want to be good at everything? We'll take Deception, Perception, Stealth, and Intuition. Race could add a few things, but I'm not building a full character, lest I be accused of cherry picking. Spells: 3 cantrips, of which I can change one on a long rest. So, Ray of Frost, Mage Hand, and Minor Illusion for your standard day Invisibility and Suggestion, with Find Familiar, Comprehend Languages, Magic Missile, Grease, Silent Image, Ice Knife, Sleep, Disguise Self That is a fairly solid footing. It isn't perfect, but I AM only a 3rd level character. Why are you taking Friends? All it does is give you advantage and it turns the enemy hostile. It is a horrible thing to use. Also, you are being very direct. Disguise Self allows me to look like anyone. While the merchant might not talk to me about the recent weird disturbances, he is likely to talk to the captain of the guard, or a famous bard, or any number of other individuals. Minor Illusion allows for you to throw your voice, and make any number of sounds. Want to freak someone out? Drag someone into the back room. Minor Illusion horrid screaming, then minor illusion a bloody rag that you minor illusion catching on fire as you walk back out. Or use Silent Image instead, to do all sorts of other things. And if you need brute force. Suggestion. Finally, with proficiency in deception, and an ally giving you the help action, you can not only sell these things but work to convince people of all sorts of things. So, if you need it faster than 10 minutes.. don't cast it as a ritual. But, counter-point... who else can speak or read ANY POSSIBLE language? Your paladin with a 16 cha and proficiency in persuasion is good, but if he doesn't speak goblin, it is kind of moot, he can't participate in talking to the goblin chief. And there are absolutely languages in the game that you CANNOT take. Most DMs don't bother, but they do use ancient scripts, which also makes this good for exploration. Only scouting? The single most useful thing that you can do in the exploration pillar. Also, took inivisibility for a reason. Finding tracks is only helpful if I'm... tracking something. Which is generally pretty rare. Also, if I am tracking something, I can turn my familiar into a snake to follow its scent, or any number of other animals. And why am I identifying plants? Sure, some obscure task that requires the nature roll I'll ONLY have my high intelligence for a +3 and advantage, and my familiar can let me see through their eyes. Additionally, help action, again. Things like the familiar figuring what the plant smells like or other tasks that can help identify it, if I need to do this for whatever reason. Yes they can. Climbing does not require an athletics check. Re-read the rules. I'm level 3, how many magic traps are we dealing with? At this level we are usually dealing with mechanical traps. Also, this is why I took perception. Also, also, this is why I took mage hand. Sure, that investigation roll might find a trap, but my mage hand rolling a 10 lbs ball on all the surfaces finds and safely triggers traps. It also counters traps on doors, traps in chests, traps under rugs, depending on how much "poke with 10 ft pole" I do, this can counter a massive variety of traps, until the DM starts specifically requiring more weight to counter. So, even if I'm not as good at spotting traps, I can safely avoid FAR more of them. There is also the utility of the Grease spell to consider. I did forget Detect Thoughts. PRobably drop sleep for it. While sleep is good for instances, Detect Thoughts is going to be better for a few options. I didn't bother with shield and mage armor. Stick to distance with ray of frost. Magic Missile is good for damage, ice knife is good for AOE. Grease, SIlent Image, and Minor illusion can act as both control, and as defenses (the classic Minor Illusion a box with firing slits to give disadvantage to hit you) A fighter good in Wisdom and Charisma? You still have the same ability scores, so to get that... 16 Str, 10 Con, 13 Charisma, 16 Wisdom, 12 Dex, 8 INT? You can get one or the other better than the wizard I made, but not both. And that's something you missed at this whole exercise, the wizard was achieving in every field. Stealthy enough to scout, familiar boosts scouting, magic supports social interactions, and offers options impossible for the martials, and combat control and damage are still solid. Meanwhile, you want a fighter with 16 str, 16 wis, 16 cha, as well as persuasion, insight, perception, investigation, survival, nature... and they still can't look like anyone, still can't read minds, still can't turn invisible, still can't auto-damage an enemy, still can't use illusions to deceive the enemy... And next level? The Wizard gets two more spells. Then they get 3rd level spells, then two more of those, then 4th level spells, then two more of those. Meanwhile the fighter... I guess they could raise their wisdom to get get another +1 on their insight, won't be as good as reading minds. They could get a +1 on their charisma for persuasion, might not help as much as looking like someone else, or allow them to communicate with someone they don't share a language with. Sure, level 3 that fighter is doing okay. LEvel 5 even, they can still be relevant. Level 9? Level 13? And, don't forget, the wizard is also able to take feats to get more spells, scribe more spells into their spellbook, get magic items that give them more spells. Plus, I could have taken a race to get more spells and/or skills on top of what I listed. [/QUOTE]
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