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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9335532" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>4.5 damage is not good damage at 3rd. It is terrible, terrible damage, far below average, bordering on pathetic.</p><p></p><p>You have 7-8 slots and some of them you are using to prop up the social pillar. There are 20 rounds of combat in a normal day (although you will probably be unconscious some of them). You will not be using leveled spells a lot combat.</p><p></p><p>Remember the idea is to be <strong><u>GOOD</u></strong> at all 3 pillars. IF a 3rd level Wizard with a 10 dex, not shield, no mage armor who spends slots on non-combat encounters is "good" at the combat pillar, then a fighter with a 10 Charisma and no proficiencies is "good" at the social pilar, because that is about how effective you will be compared to other characters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am figuring 6 combat encounters, lasting 3-4 rounds each, or about 20 rounds of combat total, and most PCs do have the health and resources to survive that. Further anyone who wants to contribute in combat usually can without using resources.</p><p></p><p>If your Wizard had a 16 Dex he would be helping every turn in combat with his crossbow. He would still be on the low side in terms of damage, but that low water mark is nearly 70% higher than you will be doing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I stated any Character who took a 16 in Constitution on point would not be good at all 3 pillars and they aren't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Four Goblins. They need a 6 to hit you, they will likely surprise the party, they have a higher dex and initiative than you do and most of the time they will be rolling with advantage because they are hidden from you most of the time. The second you shoot a spell they will all fire at you (or all that are remaining alive will).</p><p></p><p>Also keep in mind with nimble escape and a +6 stealth there will be some difficulty targeting them with some of your spells.</p><p></p><p>This is a fight designed for 1st level and you have a significant chance of going down in it. On average 6 shots at you will take you down. Figure one in the first round while you are surprised and the goblins fire is split, three in the second round (after you cast a spell and one of the Goblins is dead). Two more shots at you in the 3rd round and you probably die.</p><p></p><p>I don't think it is definite, but I do think you are at a high risk. Poor stealth rolls by them, good attack rolls by the party will go to your favor.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What I am pretty sure I said was a fighter who takes a 16 Constitution on point can't be good at all 3 pillars, but neither can a Wizard or any other class except Bard, Rogue or Ranger. If those are not my exact words, it is pretty close.</p><p></p><p>My point is if you dump your other stats and throw a bunch of points into constitution you will be weak at least one of the pillars, having a 16 in Constitution is essential to the counter argument against that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is not decent damage at 3rd level. The only cantrip that is decent at this level is EB with AB.</p><p></p><p>4.5 damage with a +5 attack stat is less than 3 DPR. Considering Nimble Escape, that 3rd level Wizard in the goblin encounter above would take on average 4 rounds with ROF to kill a single Goblin. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You will be contributing less than when a fighter with an 8 Wisdom and no perception proficiency searches a room.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok to start with Grease is not concentration. If it was concentration it would not likely stay around for long given how many concentration checks you will be making with a 10AC.</p><p></p><p>Grease lasts a minute, but it only affects a 10 foot area, enemies are not going to stay in it unless it gives them an advantage to do so or they have no choice.</p><p></p><p>I am not saying it is an awful spell, it is a good spell for 1st level only because it is a control that you do not need to concentrate on, but it is not as good as other concentration spells and typically does not give a lasting significant effect.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The character you built is good at the social pillar.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because RAW it takes an action to look through your familiar's eyes and it only lasts until the start of your next turn. It takes another action to make the skill check. </p><p></p><p>Read find familiar -</p><p></p><p><em>" ..... While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, <strong><u>as an action</u></strong>, you can see through your familiar’s eyes and hear what it hears <strong><u>until the start of your next turn</u></strong>, ...."</em></p><p></p><p>You take an action to look through your familiar's eyes, that ability stops at the beginning of the next turn before you make your skill check.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No it is 2 actions you are trying to take on one turn.</p><p></p><p>I believe the only two ways to do this RAW as you describe are by using Time Stop or if you have 2 fighter levels and use action surge to do it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is what ability checks are for. </p><p>Athletics is the ability you use to make climbing checks. Not when climbing stairs, or climbing a ladder or climbing on to a horse, but any time you are going to make a check.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No character needs to roll to do something trivial. </p><p></p><p>I don't need to roll persuasion to buy a mug of ale or perception to find the sun on a clear sunny day either. </p><p></p><p>I would argue that the tree and rocky cliff are not so clear and I know ROFM calls for athletics checks for climbing a cliffs, and TOA requires it for climbing a tree. So it would seem that official WOTC 5E content does in fact require you to make such a check for trees and cliffs at times. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you are soling this encounter 1 vs 4 you are almost certainly dead, despite it being an "easy" encounter RAW. As I said earlier, it is 4 turns on average to kill a single goblin using ROF and it is 6 attacks on you before you are down.</p><p></p><p>You mathematically still have a decent chance of going down if you are at 3rd level supported by 3 other 1st level characters. I said you have a decent chance of dying, and that is not actually true considering death saves, but you do have a mathematically significant chance of going down to 0 hit points in that fight and that is what I actually meant to say.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is not what I am suggesting. As you qouted I said I would "dump" Strength or Dex, on point buy I would set one of those to 8 if I wanted to be good at all 3 pillars.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think you know how maneuver dice work because you have the numbers wrong. </p><p></p><p>I assume you do realize that 8 number above includes the Wizard's short rest recharge through AR?</p><p></p><p>Maneuver dice all recharge on a short rest, which means from the fighting style alone he has 3 of them on a standard adventuring day with 2 short rests, not 1. That more slots than you are going to be able to spend on skill checks since you need to save most of your slots for combat.</p><p></p><p>Finally you can decide to spend the maneuver dice or not, whereas the spells you mention all need to be cast ahead of time.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No to have more maneuvers to spend on skill checks, while still being good at combat I just need the fighting style.</p><p></p><p>If I was building for this specifically at 3rd level I would have 4 more PER SHORT REST from subclass or 15 total per day. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So pick a subclass! It is not going to change it. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But you are probably not running it with a 10 Dex Wizard with no defensive options.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At 1st level melee characters are still pretty good throwing things at the ranges the Goblins are at on that map and they are doing substantially more damage doing that than your Wizard. A sword and board with superior technique loses 1 point of damage throwing weapons at 1st level, a heavy weapon build with superior technique loses no damage at all considering they can go hand axes and throw one with a bonus action (1 attack 2d6+3 or 2 attacks totaling 2d6+3).</p><p></p><p>The reason a 1st level fighter will last longer than your Wizard is their AC is much higher and they can heal themselves.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I never said they needed 6 skills, nor that they needed to play a Battlemaster. Playing a Battlemaster is an option, and at this level it is the best one for this purpose, but I did not preface it with that assumption. My assumption is you need a good Wisdom and Charisma and some Wisdom and Charisma Skills with some exrtras to boost those checks.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9335532, member: 7030563"] 4.5 damage is not good damage at 3rd. It is terrible, terrible damage, far below average, bordering on pathetic. You have 7-8 slots and some of them you are using to prop up the social pillar. There are 20 rounds of combat in a normal day (although you will probably be unconscious some of them). You will not be using leveled spells a lot combat. Remember the idea is to be [B][U]GOOD[/U][/B] at all 3 pillars. IF a 3rd level Wizard with a 10 dex, not shield, no mage armor who spends slots on non-combat encounters is "good" at the combat pillar, then a fighter with a 10 Charisma and no proficiencies is "good" at the social pilar, because that is about how effective you will be compared to other characters. I am figuring 6 combat encounters, lasting 3-4 rounds each, or about 20 rounds of combat total, and most PCs do have the health and resources to survive that. Further anyone who wants to contribute in combat usually can without using resources. If your Wizard had a 16 Dex he would be helping every turn in combat with his crossbow. He would still be on the low side in terms of damage, but that low water mark is nearly 70% higher than you will be doing. I stated any Character who took a 16 in Constitution on point would not be good at all 3 pillars and they aren't. Four Goblins. They need a 6 to hit you, they will likely surprise the party, they have a higher dex and initiative than you do and most of the time they will be rolling with advantage because they are hidden from you most of the time. The second you shoot a spell they will all fire at you (or all that are remaining alive will). Also keep in mind with nimble escape and a +6 stealth there will be some difficulty targeting them with some of your spells. This is a fight designed for 1st level and you have a significant chance of going down in it. On average 6 shots at you will take you down. Figure one in the first round while you are surprised and the goblins fire is split, three in the second round (after you cast a spell and one of the Goblins is dead). Two more shots at you in the 3rd round and you probably die. I don't think it is definite, but I do think you are at a high risk. Poor stealth rolls by them, good attack rolls by the party will go to your favor. What I am pretty sure I said was a fighter who takes a 16 Constitution on point can't be good at all 3 pillars, but neither can a Wizard or any other class except Bard, Rogue or Ranger. If those are not my exact words, it is pretty close. My point is if you dump your other stats and throw a bunch of points into constitution you will be weak at least one of the pillars, having a 16 in Constitution is essential to the counter argument against that. It is not decent damage at 3rd level. The only cantrip that is decent at this level is EB with AB. 4.5 damage with a +5 attack stat is less than 3 DPR. Considering Nimble Escape, that 3rd level Wizard in the goblin encounter above would take on average 4 rounds with ROF to kill a single Goblin. You will be contributing less than when a fighter with an 8 Wisdom and no perception proficiency searches a room. Ok to start with Grease is not concentration. If it was concentration it would not likely stay around for long given how many concentration checks you will be making with a 10AC. Grease lasts a minute, but it only affects a 10 foot area, enemies are not going to stay in it unless it gives them an advantage to do so or they have no choice. I am not saying it is an awful spell, it is a good spell for 1st level only because it is a control that you do not need to concentrate on, but it is not as good as other concentration spells and typically does not give a lasting significant effect. The character you built is good at the social pillar. Because RAW it takes an action to look through your familiar's eyes and it only lasts until the start of your next turn. It takes another action to make the skill check. Read find familiar - [I]" ..... While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, [B][U]as an action[/U][/B], you can see through your familiar’s eyes and hear what it hears [B][U]until the start of your next turn[/U][/B], ...."[/I] You take an action to look through your familiar's eyes, that ability stops at the beginning of the next turn before you make your skill check. [I] [/I] No it is 2 actions you are trying to take on one turn. I believe the only two ways to do this RAW as you describe are by using Time Stop or if you have 2 fighter levels and use action surge to do it. That is what ability checks are for. Athletics is the ability you use to make climbing checks. Not when climbing stairs, or climbing a ladder or climbing on to a horse, but any time you are going to make a check. No character needs to roll to do something trivial. I don't need to roll persuasion to buy a mug of ale or perception to find the sun on a clear sunny day either. I would argue that the tree and rocky cliff are not so clear and I know ROFM calls for athletics checks for climbing a cliffs, and TOA requires it for climbing a tree. So it would seem that official WOTC 5E content does in fact require you to make such a check for trees and cliffs at times. If you are soling this encounter 1 vs 4 you are almost certainly dead, despite it being an "easy" encounter RAW. As I said earlier, it is 4 turns on average to kill a single goblin using ROF and it is 6 attacks on you before you are down. You mathematically still have a decent chance of going down if you are at 3rd level supported by 3 other 1st level characters. I said you have a decent chance of dying, and that is not actually true considering death saves, but you do have a mathematically significant chance of going down to 0 hit points in that fight and that is what I actually meant to say. That is not what I am suggesting. As you qouted I said I would "dump" Strength or Dex, on point buy I would set one of those to 8 if I wanted to be good at all 3 pillars. I don't think you know how maneuver dice work because you have the numbers wrong. I assume you do realize that 8 number above includes the Wizard's short rest recharge through AR? Maneuver dice all recharge on a short rest, which means from the fighting style alone he has 3 of them on a standard adventuring day with 2 short rests, not 1. That more slots than you are going to be able to spend on skill checks since you need to save most of your slots for combat. Finally you can decide to spend the maneuver dice or not, whereas the spells you mention all need to be cast ahead of time. No to have more maneuvers to spend on skill checks, while still being good at combat I just need the fighting style. If I was building for this specifically at 3rd level I would have 4 more PER SHORT REST from subclass or 15 total per day. So pick a subclass! It is not going to change it. But you are probably not running it with a 10 Dex Wizard with no defensive options. At 1st level melee characters are still pretty good throwing things at the ranges the Goblins are at on that map and they are doing substantially more damage doing that than your Wizard. A sword and board with superior technique loses 1 point of damage throwing weapons at 1st level, a heavy weapon build with superior technique loses no damage at all considering they can go hand axes and throw one with a bonus action (1 attack 2d6+3 or 2 attacks totaling 2d6+3). The reason a 1st level fighter will last longer than your Wizard is their AC is much higher and they can heal themselves. I never said they needed 6 skills, nor that they needed to play a Battlemaster. Playing a Battlemaster is an option, and at this level it is the best one for this purpose, but I did not preface it with that assumption. My assumption is you need a good Wisdom and Charisma and some Wisdom and Charisma Skills with some exrtras to boost those checks. [/QUOTE]
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