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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9337179" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>I am not wrong. A Fighter will take down 3 skeletons a turn pretty reliably. For a Wizard they typically need to be grouped together in an AOE, which is not common, certainly not round after round.</p><p></p><p>I don't think I have ever seen a Wizard in play catch 8 skeletons in an AOE.</p><p></p><p>If it is common as you say, can you post some videos of streamed games online showing this? If you can't find skeletons other similar creaatures will do. I think this is a strawman that you've never actually seen in play.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your Wizard is going to be the one losing hit points because he is the one who is going to be targeted with lightning.</p><p></p><p>And let's reiterate, it is near impossible for your spell to work against a Blue Dragon. So you did nothing worthwhile except lose a spell slot.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well you missed some .... Solar for example. You also left out all the Dragons that can move off turn. There are only what 25 or so CR16+ in the monster manual? with half of them being Dragons.</p><p></p><p>In any case here is a list of CR 16+ that can teleport off turn or as a bonus action. This does not include creatures that can move off turn or that are immune to restrained. Add those in and you have more than half of the official published monsters of that level:</p><p></p><p></p><p>Acerack</p><p>Adult Amethyst Dragon</p><p>Adult Saphire Dragon</p><p>Amythyst Greatwyrm</p><p>Ancient Amethyst Dragon</p><p>Ancient Crystal Dragon</p><p>Ancient Emerald Dragon</p><p>Ancient Sapphire Dragon</p><p>Ancient Topaz Dragon</p><p>Androsphinx</p><p>Archaic</p><p>Zariel</p><p>Bael</p><p>Blue Abishai</p><p>Cosmic Horror</p><p>Demagoth titan</p><p>Drow Favored Consort</p><p>Drow Matron Mother</p><p>Drow Mother of Rebellion</p><p>Factal Skall</p><p>Githzeri Anarch</p><p>Iggwilv</p><p>Imix</p><p>Laeral Silverhand</p><p>Lessor Star Spawn Emmisary</p><p>Miirym</p><p>Moloch</p><p>Moledeus</p><p>Nightmare beast</p><p>Nintra Siotta</p><p>Planar INcarnate</p><p>Saphire Greatworm</p><p>Shadrix Silverquill</p><p>Solar</p><p>Titvilus</p><p>Topaz Great Worm</p><p>Trobriand</p><p>Vieled presence</p><p>Yan-C-Bin</p><p>Ygorl</p><p></p><p>Like I said that is just CR16+ monsters that can do some type of teleport or plane shift off turn.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But the difference is the fighter can lock him in place ON HIS TURN. The Wizard can't (at least he can't with Web). All the Fighter needs is enough move to reach the Dragon.</p><p></p><p>My point on burrowing is not to "play mole man" it is to leave your web before it even takes effect. He can't do that if he is grappled .... becuase he is grappled.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It depends on the initiative order. If it is just the Wizard, Dragon, Fighter in the fight then absolutely he can do it every single round.</p><p></p><p>If there is a Rogue in there and you assume everyone has </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>He can use 3 legendary actions between his turn and his next turn, the Wing buffet with movement counts as two. I don't understand why this is so hard.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, if he goes before the fighter, and the fighter fails to save twice and is not otherwise immune to being frightened.</p><p></p><p>Even with this and even with a bad Wisdom and a low initiative it will always be more likely to work than Web.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would prepare to counter Dragonfear before I prepared to counter lightning. But is 65 average damage on a failed save, 33 on a success (which is not easy for a Wizard or a Fighter) and 17 with both a success and resistance.</p><p></p><p>An attack sequence does 53 if all 3 hit, but some of that is lightning damage too, and none of it is magical.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No its not, because if he can;t damage anyone while moveing then all he could have used that for is moving anyway.</p><p></p><p>The dragon gets 3 legendary actions per turn. IF no one is within reach then there is nothing being wasted because he could not have damged anyone anyway.</p><p></p><p>Do you not understand this? If you do nothing at all and pick your nose, the only thing he can do with his legendary action is move because no one is close to him. Your Web changed nothing unless there is someone in reach .... in which case they take damage when he moves.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is actually a bad trade. Again if you do nothing except pick your nose the Dragon dies with Legendary resistances and you have one more spell slot when the fight ends.</p><p></p><p>Whether the Dragon has 2 Legendarys or 3 or 1 left whe he dies it is irrelevant. The only time it matters is if you actually get him to 0 and there is a spell cast after that which he fails the save on. There is almost no chance that will happen with a normal size party of this level before the fight is over. While you are "making a good trade" the rest of the party is going to kill the Dragon.</p><p></p><p>Moreover it is not going to get to that because the Dragon is not likely going to have to save at all.</p><p></p><p>What would be a good trade? A 2nd level magic missile three rounds in a row (assuming he is still alive on the 3rd round). That won't take any legendary resistances but it might actually kill him earlier, save a turn and the damage he would do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You have to move into the open to cast web on him. It is possible you can move to full cover, but not assured, especially since web only has a 60 foot range. </p><p></p><p>I love how you can automatically target 8 skeletons every time you cast fireball, but at the same time you can always get to 100% cover after you cast web.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is worthless against most enemies of that CR you will face. Over half of them will avoid a save all together.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You said he could not attack and that is not true.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe if you posted what you meant.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I did not insist that you use Web.</p><p></p><p>Please provide a quotation for that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again please focus on what I said. You put quotes up there and I NEVER said that.</p><p></p><p>I said - just because it is someone else's default action does not mean you are not playing.</p><p></p><p>I never said someone else is "making the checks or taking the actions". There is something called player agency YOU decide what YOUR PC does (or tries to do). Not another player, not the DM, not his ability scores or build. YOU make those decisions and that is "playing the game"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then don't discuss tactics.</p><p></p><p>To start with discussing tactics during a battle or encounter is metagaming. Discussing them before a battle or encounter you know is coming is not meta, but it is also not fun. I know a lot of tables do it, but I find it immersion breaking, it typically fails to play out like expected anyway and we spend a bunch of time talking about what we are going to do instead of doing it.</p><p></p><p>If you play instead of talking other characters won't always be the superior choice because the dice will drive the results. The only reason they are the "superior choice" when discussing tactics is because you are making assumptions on what will and will not be successful.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9337179, member: 7030563"] I am not wrong. A Fighter will take down 3 skeletons a turn pretty reliably. For a Wizard they typically need to be grouped together in an AOE, which is not common, certainly not round after round. I don't think I have ever seen a Wizard in play catch 8 skeletons in an AOE. If it is common as you say, can you post some videos of streamed games online showing this? If you can't find skeletons other similar creaatures will do. I think this is a strawman that you've never actually seen in play. Your Wizard is going to be the one losing hit points because he is the one who is going to be targeted with lightning. And let's reiterate, it is near impossible for your spell to work against a Blue Dragon. So you did nothing worthwhile except lose a spell slot. Well you missed some .... Solar for example. You also left out all the Dragons that can move off turn. There are only what 25 or so CR16+ in the monster manual? with half of them being Dragons. In any case here is a list of CR 16+ that can teleport off turn or as a bonus action. This does not include creatures that can move off turn or that are immune to restrained. Add those in and you have more than half of the official published monsters of that level: Acerack Adult Amethyst Dragon Adult Saphire Dragon Amythyst Greatwyrm Ancient Amethyst Dragon Ancient Crystal Dragon Ancient Emerald Dragon Ancient Sapphire Dragon Ancient Topaz Dragon Androsphinx Archaic Zariel Bael Blue Abishai Cosmic Horror Demagoth titan Drow Favored Consort Drow Matron Mother Drow Mother of Rebellion Factal Skall Githzeri Anarch Iggwilv Imix Laeral Silverhand Lessor Star Spawn Emmisary Miirym Moloch Moledeus Nightmare beast Nintra Siotta Planar INcarnate Saphire Greatworm Shadrix Silverquill Solar Titvilus Topaz Great Worm Trobriand Vieled presence Yan-C-Bin Ygorl Like I said that is just CR16+ monsters that can do some type of teleport or plane shift off turn. But the difference is the fighter can lock him in place ON HIS TURN. The Wizard can't (at least he can't with Web). All the Fighter needs is enough move to reach the Dragon. My point on burrowing is not to "play mole man" it is to leave your web before it even takes effect. He can't do that if he is grappled .... becuase he is grappled. It depends on the initiative order. If it is just the Wizard, Dragon, Fighter in the fight then absolutely he can do it every single round. If there is a Rogue in there and you assume everyone has He can use 3 legendary actions between his turn and his next turn, the Wing buffet with movement counts as two. I don't understand why this is so hard. Sure, if he goes before the fighter, and the fighter fails to save twice and is not otherwise immune to being frightened. Even with this and even with a bad Wisdom and a low initiative it will always be more likely to work than Web. I would prepare to counter Dragonfear before I prepared to counter lightning. But is 65 average damage on a failed save, 33 on a success (which is not easy for a Wizard or a Fighter) and 17 with both a success and resistance. An attack sequence does 53 if all 3 hit, but some of that is lightning damage too, and none of it is magical. No its not, because if he can;t damage anyone while moveing then all he could have used that for is moving anyway. The dragon gets 3 legendary actions per turn. IF no one is within reach then there is nothing being wasted because he could not have damged anyone anyway. Do you not understand this? If you do nothing at all and pick your nose, the only thing he can do with his legendary action is move because no one is close to him. Your Web changed nothing unless there is someone in reach .... in which case they take damage when he moves. It is actually a bad trade. Again if you do nothing except pick your nose the Dragon dies with Legendary resistances and you have one more spell slot when the fight ends. Whether the Dragon has 2 Legendarys or 3 or 1 left whe he dies it is irrelevant. The only time it matters is if you actually get him to 0 and there is a spell cast after that which he fails the save on. There is almost no chance that will happen with a normal size party of this level before the fight is over. While you are "making a good trade" the rest of the party is going to kill the Dragon. Moreover it is not going to get to that because the Dragon is not likely going to have to save at all. What would be a good trade? A 2nd level magic missile three rounds in a row (assuming he is still alive on the 3rd round). That won't take any legendary resistances but it might actually kill him earlier, save a turn and the damage he would do. You have to move into the open to cast web on him. It is possible you can move to full cover, but not assured, especially since web only has a 60 foot range. I love how you can automatically target 8 skeletons every time you cast fireball, but at the same time you can always get to 100% cover after you cast web. It is worthless against most enemies of that CR you will face. Over half of them will avoid a save all together. You said he could not attack and that is not true. Maybe if you posted what you meant. I did not insist that you use Web. Please provide a quotation for that. Again please focus on what I said. You put quotes up there and I NEVER said that. I said - just because it is someone else's default action does not mean you are not playing. I never said someone else is "making the checks or taking the actions". There is something called player agency YOU decide what YOUR PC does (or tries to do). Not another player, not the DM, not his ability scores or build. YOU make those decisions and that is "playing the game" Then don't discuss tactics. To start with discussing tactics during a battle or encounter is metagaming. Discussing them before a battle or encounter you know is coming is not meta, but it is also not fun. I know a lot of tables do it, but I find it immersion breaking, it typically fails to play out like expected anyway and we spend a bunch of time talking about what we are going to do instead of doing it. If you play instead of talking other characters won't always be the superior choice because the dice will drive the results. The only reason they are the "superior choice" when discussing tactics is because you are making assumptions on what will and will not be successful. [/QUOTE]
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