So this question came up today, our marshal is a gambling general with daring assault. I was inside his commanding presence aura and cast scorching ray. 3 attack rolls, -5 to each, +6d6 damage to a total of 12d6 for a 2nd level spell from a 3rd level character. Combined with Marked foe it feels very overpowered. Is this how it supposed to work? we got into a discussion about it and we're not sure what's the RAI on this feature.
Level Up (A5E) The Marshal Daring Assault feature, is it as strong as I think it is?
W'rkncacnter
Hero
yeah, that's pretty much how it works.
This seems like a pretty stock standard synergy. It's certainly more effective than using the ability on say, a fighter with one attack, but you could do the same thing with an Adept using Flurry of blows, or a duel wielder.
That's the sort of thing players are expected to do, find combinations of abilities that are more powerful in aggregate than they are individually.
That's the sort of thing players are expected to do, find combinations of abilities that are more powerful in aggregate than they are individually.
Wow ok, as the DM in that game I’ll admit I was taken aback by this.
It’s a free great weapon master / sharpshooter combo (at least the 2nd part) that also works with spells for everyone in aura.
Was this ability changed ? It might be my memory playing tricks on me but I could have sworn i saw this ability only working for those given an attack by the marshal or not working with spells (maybe in playtest? )
I love it when my players find powerful combinations/synergies but this just seem like adding a lot of extra damage for everyone.
Anyway, thank you, appreciate your answers.
It’s a free great weapon master / sharpshooter combo (at least the 2nd part) that also works with spells for everyone in aura.
Was this ability changed ? It might be my memory playing tricks on me but I could have sworn i saw this ability only working for those given an attack by the marshal or not working with spells (maybe in playtest? )
but it’s a passive ability, the marshal is not using anything. There is no decision making for the marshal (limited resources, choosing the best target for this ability etc.)
I love it when my players find powerful combinations/synergies but this just seem like adding a lot of extra damage for everyone.
Anyway, thank you, appreciate your answers.
W'rkncacnter
Hero
it's mathematically worse then GWM/SS (2d6 is 7 extra average damage) until about level 15, where it's very slightly better (3d6 is 10.5 extra average damage). working on spells is nice, but it's only useful for spells with attack rolls (e.g. scorching ray), of which not too many exist.
edit: really, scorching ray is a bit of an outlier here - most attack spells are single target (at least per turn), whereas scorching ray lets you belt out a lot of attacks in a single turn very early on.
edit 2: it's also true that the GWM/SS equivalents work differently in a5e, but the GWM equivalent has been buffed (while 5e/a5e consider disadvantage to be equivalent to a -5, it's actually closer to a -3 on average) and the SS equivalent is minus prof to attack/double prof to damage, which is a whole different set of math except for levels 13-16.
the player who's making the attack is, though.
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Mike Myler
Have you been to LevelUp5E.com yet?
thuter
Explorer
It is a strong benefit, but it is also the only benefit at level 3 of the subclass, and it works only on your allies.
I do agree it skews combat priorty towards making as many attacks as possible, instead of a lower number of more powerful hits (the same tended to be the build priority of Sharpshooter builds in O5E with Crossbow Expert dual Hand Crossbow builds), and people like myself will probably turn it into a numbers game where you calculate at which target AC you should or should not use this. But then again: Even though dual wielding was buffed, many classes have other uses for bonus actions, and there is a very limited number of combat maneuvers that increase the number of attacks you can make in a round. With Archery Fighting Style now only available to Fighters and Fletcher Rangers, and Battlemaster's Precision Attack not in the game, the accuracy hit of -5 is not as easily trivialized, and at early levels the payout is not as great either (2d6 < 10). Sure, that's where you have your Marshal powers and Mark Foe reduces the penalty to 2.5, but on a class that is designed to improve the power of allied combatants, I feel this is not as terrible as "everyone gets Sharpshooter for free" would be in O5E.
I tend to agree that the passive nature of this being somewhat strong. It would not have surprised me (comparing power levels of other subclasses), if this benefit would only be an option for attacks made via Commanding Presence, though that would limit its use tremendously, or that it would cost some sort of action or resource to enable it for the round.
Problem remains: Marshals depend heavily on party composition. In certain parties they are ok, in others borderline overpowered. This makes balancing the Marshal across the board very difficult. Your party getting one or two attacks per round with Daring Assault is slightly underwhelming for a subclass. Them using it 10 times in a round is very strong.
Finally: Yes, Scorching Ray is likely the most disgusting you could go with this, and it gets worse. At lvl 17 with Critical Weakness a full caster could spend a 9th level slot to make 10 Scorching Ray attacks, all with advantage, -5 to hit and with 3d6+6 extra damage per hit. Assuming a lvl 17 Sorcerer as the caster, Intense Spell metamagic will turn this into max damage rolls, meaning 10 x max[5d6+6] = 360 damage, assuming all hits. You might think this is ridiculous, but even without a Marshal close by, Sorcerers of this power level could cast Meteor Swarm with Intense Spell for unmitigated accuracy that deals 168 damage in four 40 ft radius spheres. Still, being able to almost oneshot an Ancient Brass Dragon is pretty sick.
EDIT: One more thing about power on a third level sorcerer: Targeting 3 enemies with Shatter without a Marshal nearby deals roughly the same amount of damage, but without the -5 to hit and dealing half on a miss. Strong, but not overly so I would say.
I do agree it skews combat priorty towards making as many attacks as possible, instead of a lower number of more powerful hits (the same tended to be the build priority of Sharpshooter builds in O5E with Crossbow Expert dual Hand Crossbow builds), and people like myself will probably turn it into a numbers game where you calculate at which target AC you should or should not use this. But then again: Even though dual wielding was buffed, many classes have other uses for bonus actions, and there is a very limited number of combat maneuvers that increase the number of attacks you can make in a round. With Archery Fighting Style now only available to Fighters and Fletcher Rangers, and Battlemaster's Precision Attack not in the game, the accuracy hit of -5 is not as easily trivialized, and at early levels the payout is not as great either (2d6 < 10). Sure, that's where you have your Marshal powers and Mark Foe reduces the penalty to 2.5, but on a class that is designed to improve the power of allied combatants, I feel this is not as terrible as "everyone gets Sharpshooter for free" would be in O5E.
I tend to agree that the passive nature of this being somewhat strong. It would not have surprised me (comparing power levels of other subclasses), if this benefit would only be an option for attacks made via Commanding Presence, though that would limit its use tremendously, or that it would cost some sort of action or resource to enable it for the round.
Problem remains: Marshals depend heavily on party composition. In certain parties they are ok, in others borderline overpowered. This makes balancing the Marshal across the board very difficult. Your party getting one or two attacks per round with Daring Assault is slightly underwhelming for a subclass. Them using it 10 times in a round is very strong.
Finally: Yes, Scorching Ray is likely the most disgusting you could go with this, and it gets worse. At lvl 17 with Critical Weakness a full caster could spend a 9th level slot to make 10 Scorching Ray attacks, all with advantage, -5 to hit and with 3d6+6 extra damage per hit. Assuming a lvl 17 Sorcerer as the caster, Intense Spell metamagic will turn this into max damage rolls, meaning 10 x max[5d6+6] = 360 damage, assuming all hits. You might think this is ridiculous, but even without a Marshal close by, Sorcerers of this power level could cast Meteor Swarm with Intense Spell for unmitigated accuracy that deals 168 damage in four 40 ft radius spheres. Still, being able to almost oneshot an Ancient Brass Dragon is pretty sick.
EDIT: One more thing about power on a third level sorcerer: Targeting 3 enemies with Shatter without a Marshal nearby deals roughly the same amount of damage, but without the -5 to hit and dealing half on a miss. Strong, but not overly so I would say.
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