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The Mechanical Impact of -5/+10
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7549413" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>I personally don't consider this thread derailed. </p><p></p><p>I don't have anything against the analysis in the first post. I haven't looked at the numbers in detail, and I don't have any reason to - I choose to believe in Yunru's mathematical skills.</p><p></p><p>No, it's what's <em>not</em> in that post I object against.</p><p></p><p>Or rather, <em>objected</em> past tense. Now I find this thread to be an excellent resource for anyone wishing to know more about the -5/+10 mechanic. Or, in other words, "The Mechanical Impact of -5/+10" <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>What would derail the thread, however, is to make it about me and my game, so I won't.</p><p></p><p>In short: -5/+10 is bad for the casual gamer who uses it when it is not mathematically sound. The very fact the OP started this thread is ample evidence it is far from trivial to understand the math involved, and for a supposedly accessible game, -5/+10 fails for this purpose.</p><p></p><p>That powergamers can conclusively break the mechanism means that for them, it's a very big ask to forego them for their fighter:y characters. <span style="font-size: 9px">The really sad part is that this unbalanced damage boost is kind-of needed to allow martials to compete. Which brings us back to the real conclusion:</span></p><p></p><p>But even if you aren't such a gamer, you should be concerned. I see no valid reason for WotC's decision to make a cool knife-fighter deal less than half of what the greataxe fighter deals. Fixing this by adding a feat for spears, another feat for rogues, and so on would indeed help balance. But given the anemic monsters in the MM I would much prefer the nerfing of the very few too-good feats, along with those few other builds that the feats are needed to compete against. That is, reduce cantrips, and you can reduce feat damage, and voila: the majority of the game options become much more viable as written! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>There are many other points factoring into this decision. In their urge to appease gamers who want to play lithe wuxia stars they nearly invalidated the strong slow archetype. 5th edition has a very different idea of what kind of hero that should dominate the battlefield. Remember those old Dragon & Dungeon magazine covers? Yeah, didn't think so. Anyway, I'm thinking of the Tolkien ripoff heroes featured. Having that kind of combat hero as your ideal is almost a trap option in this edition. Peter Jackson really had his ear to the ground - his depiction of the slow Dwarf as a joke, and the fast Elf as an über-soldier, is exactly what 5E supports more than a decade later!</p><p></p><p>To keep this very short: it is not unlikely the GWM feat would be sorta-balanced if it imposed a hard speed limit - if you take the feat you can never move faster than speed 25 ft, no exceptions. (No, no exceptions - wear boots of speed and move at Speed 25; drink a potion of flying and fly at Speed 25) <span style="font-size: 9px">Feel free to start a separate thread if you're interested in hearing me justify this hypothesis.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">The Crossbow Expert feat, on the other hand, is bad in every atom and should just be removed from the game.</span></p><p></p><p>Cheerio,</p><p>Zapp</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7549413, member: 12731"] I personally don't consider this thread derailed. I don't have anything against the analysis in the first post. I haven't looked at the numbers in detail, and I don't have any reason to - I choose to believe in Yunru's mathematical skills. No, it's what's [I]not[/I] in that post I object against. Or rather, [I]objected[/I] past tense. Now I find this thread to be an excellent resource for anyone wishing to know more about the -5/+10 mechanic. Or, in other words, "The Mechanical Impact of -5/+10" :) What would derail the thread, however, is to make it about me and my game, so I won't. In short: -5/+10 is bad for the casual gamer who uses it when it is not mathematically sound. The very fact the OP started this thread is ample evidence it is far from trivial to understand the math involved, and for a supposedly accessible game, -5/+10 fails for this purpose. That powergamers can conclusively break the mechanism means that for them, it's a very big ask to forego them for their fighter:y characters. [SIZE=1]The really sad part is that this unbalanced damage boost is kind-of needed to allow martials to compete. Which brings us back to the real conclusion:[/SIZE] But even if you aren't such a gamer, you should be concerned. I see no valid reason for WotC's decision to make a cool knife-fighter deal less than half of what the greataxe fighter deals. Fixing this by adding a feat for spears, another feat for rogues, and so on would indeed help balance. But given the anemic monsters in the MM I would much prefer the nerfing of the very few too-good feats, along with those few other builds that the feats are needed to compete against. That is, reduce cantrips, and you can reduce feat damage, and voila: the majority of the game options become much more viable as written! :) There are many other points factoring into this decision. In their urge to appease gamers who want to play lithe wuxia stars they nearly invalidated the strong slow archetype. 5th edition has a very different idea of what kind of hero that should dominate the battlefield. Remember those old Dragon & Dungeon magazine covers? Yeah, didn't think so. Anyway, I'm thinking of the Tolkien ripoff heroes featured. Having that kind of combat hero as your ideal is almost a trap option in this edition. Peter Jackson really had his ear to the ground - his depiction of the slow Dwarf as a joke, and the fast Elf as an über-soldier, is exactly what 5E supports more than a decade later! To keep this very short: it is not unlikely the GWM feat would be sorta-balanced if it imposed a hard speed limit - if you take the feat you can never move faster than speed 25 ft, no exceptions. (No, no exceptions - wear boots of speed and move at Speed 25; drink a potion of flying and fly at Speed 25) [SIZE=1]Feel free to start a separate thread if you're interested in hearing me justify this hypothesis. The Crossbow Expert feat, on the other hand, is bad in every atom and should just be removed from the game.[/SIZE] Cheerio, Zapp [/QUOTE]
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