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The more I think about it, the least I like class groups.
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<blockquote data-quote="Lojaan" data-source="post: 8790503" data-attributes="member: 71784"><p>I think you are arguing against your own point. If you do not concern yourself with class group then that will lead to bad class design. Classes do not exist in a vacuum. They need to match up against other classes, contribute to a group, and their game mechanics need to reinforce their identity.</p><p></p><p>Let's ignore the Paladin until we see what is planned for both that class and group, but the swordsmage is a great example - if you don't decide what group it is going to be a part of, which function it will fulfill, then you end up in a situation where it is kinda good at a bunch of things but cannot actually fulfill any role. You need to decide if your swordsmage is going to be a warrior who does magic, or a mage who fights in melee, and design the class accordingly. Trying to be both (which has been done before) leaves you with a class that is both bad as a warrior and a bad as a mage. </p><p></p><p>In my opinion, another example of this being done badly is the current 5e ranger. Heaps and heaps of class identity but on the page it's all over the place. Placing them in the expert group gives them a clear focus, which the mechanics of the class reinforces. These are the guys with the skills. Yes, they can also fight, but they're not Warriors. Don't expect them to go toe to toe with a barbarian. Unless they are fighting on their own terms, and then the barbarian isn't going to see them coming. And they are always fighting on their own terms.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I see the class groups as useful tools to help refine class identities to ensure that their game role and mechanics actually reinforces this identity.</p><p></p><p>HOWEVER</p><p></p><p>This entirely relies on this being executed <em>well </em>and.. well let's see how the rest of the playtest goes. I am well aware that I am basing my positive opinion on the one group that we have seen in detail so far. I may agree with you after we see how Paladins and Warlocks turn out.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lojaan, post: 8790503, member: 71784"] I think you are arguing against your own point. If you do not concern yourself with class group then that will lead to bad class design. Classes do not exist in a vacuum. They need to match up against other classes, contribute to a group, and their game mechanics need to reinforce their identity. Let's ignore the Paladin until we see what is planned for both that class and group, but the swordsmage is a great example - if you don't decide what group it is going to be a part of, which function it will fulfill, then you end up in a situation where it is kinda good at a bunch of things but cannot actually fulfill any role. You need to decide if your swordsmage is going to be a warrior who does magic, or a mage who fights in melee, and design the class accordingly. Trying to be both (which has been done before) leaves you with a class that is both bad as a warrior and a bad as a mage. In my opinion, another example of this being done badly is the current 5e ranger. Heaps and heaps of class identity but on the page it's all over the place. Placing them in the expert group gives them a clear focus, which the mechanics of the class reinforces. These are the guys with the skills. Yes, they can also fight, but they're not Warriors. Don't expect them to go toe to toe with a barbarian. Unless they are fighting on their own terms, and then the barbarian isn't going to see them coming. And they are always fighting on their own terms. Anyway, I see the class groups as useful tools to help refine class identities to ensure that their game role and mechanics actually reinforces this identity. HOWEVER This entirely relies on this being executed [I]well [/I]and.. well let's see how the rest of the playtest goes. I am well aware that I am basing my positive opinion on the one group that we have seen in detail so far. I may agree with you after we see how Paladins and Warlocks turn out. [/QUOTE]
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