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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6407993" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>The reason that it is possible for planes to shift in Planescape is because of <em>the perspective of the rest of the people in the multiverse</em>, not because of any intrinsic property of the act itself. That perspective, as far as a character is concerned, could be wrong! That's what it means to have the planes be made of belief -- <strong>good and evil are defined by what the people who make the planes believe to be good and evil</strong>. That belief is subject to change, and it is also subject to re-assessment, based on the actions of those with strong convictions (like the PC's). That's part of what it means to be a PC powered by belief in PS, you have the power to change the beliefs of others, and thus the power to change what the multiverse is. The planes do not make things evil by their actions, other believing beings make things evil by believing that to be the case, and this is expressed by things like layers sliding from LG to LN. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It can, because what "free of evil" means depends on what one views as part of evil, and the perspective of those in the various Good planes is that the other Good planes are not entirely free of that evil (the multiverse still contains evil, after all, and true good is triumphant). Planes dub themselves perfect, but what perfection is depends upon where one stands. </p><p></p><p>If order is a prerequisite for true good, then the Chaotic Good people are less good than they could be, as bad as Lawful Evil, just less hostile about their wrongness. If independence is a prerequisite for true good, then the Lawful Good people are less good than they could be, as bad as Chaotic Evil, just less hostile about their wrongness. "True good" in this case is a good that is better than what the multiverse currently has, as that good has not been strong enough to eliminate evil. "True goodness" doesn't struggle against evil, it simply removes it, turning the hearts of psychopaths and fiends to benevolence and compassion as they come to embrace the belief themselves. </p><p></p><p>This means, for instance, that Celestia isn't the most extreme LG possible (as it exists alongside all sorts of evil in the planes), that there is a higher LG that may be attained, a better multiverse possible for those who adhere to LG beliefs, one that might in fact be free of evil of all sorts (which doesn't mean free of problems, but it might mean free of fiends!).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, <strong>what is good depends on what one views as good</strong>, so they've only revealed themselves to be less than fully good in the eyes of certain people. "Good" is subjective. And those views and perspectives can change, based on the actions of those with strong convictions. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's just using the perspectives of the NPC's in the setting. Those NPC's view the act as evil. They aren't necessarily correct. </p><p></p><p>It's the "Peter Pan Principle." If you believe and clap your hands, Tinkerbell lives, and if you don't, she just dies. What people believe in changes reality in PS. Before the PC's arrive, the planes are a certain way because everyone generally agrees that they are that way. Once the PC's come onto the scene, "everyone" might believe something else, thanks to their actions. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As a PC, just that they have a lot of work to do. </p><p></p><p>Center of All. The Evil taint that shows up and the pull to the Abyss happen because of the perspectives of the infinite NPC's that make up the planes, not because of any objective truth. Objective moral and ethical position is impossible in an infinite moral and ethical space much as objective physical locations are impossible in an infinite physical space. If that fate is something that you want to avoid, you need to change those perspectives, to bring them closer to yours. You've been judged by your peers, by other people, by "society," but it's only the final state of things if you accept their belief as authoritative. If you think differently -- if you believe something else -- it is up to you to change that belief. </p><p></p><p>In-setting and in-character, it might lead you to a tension. You're in the Abyss, and you think you've been put there wrongly, so you want to perhaps go plead your case in the streets of Sigil, to influence planewalkers from all over, and spread the idea that independent compassion is a greater good than externalized compassion, knowing that if you are successful, you will become the divine being you know you are in your heart. But since you are some lowly form of dribbling demon, your ability to access a portal and go to Sigil and proclaim your apparent innocence is...limited. And to climb the power structure of the Abyss is going to take some apparent cruelty and malice, as that seems to be what grants power there. So do you try and make concessions to the CE place you find yourself in to climb the power structure and go to Sigil when you can free yourself from its bonds, hoping that the small cruelties you perpetuate don't change your inherent belief in compassion and goodness? Or do you perhaps find some traveler to the Abyss as some half-formed proto-demon and beg them to take you to Sigil so that you can plead for the wrongness of your case? And then when you get to Sigil, how do you convince an audience who sees a demon known for lies and tricks that you are authentic and honest about your beliefs? Do you find and recruit Eladrin to your cause?</p><p></p><p>This is a VERY PS-y character arc!</p><p></p><p>More commonly, just because PC's play mortals, that arc will play out before the death of the character, so that in their life, the character changes the perspective of the planes before death. They show up as Good on detection spells and fly away to some sort of heaven after death because the planes already generally conform to their personal outlook -- heck, perhaps they are "rewarded" with a noble death at level 20 against the evil "fallen" paladin who has decided that law and order is more important than compassion and has come to slay this heretic once and for all...and this death is what it takes to convince others that they really were a good person, and the paladin really was not, and why did we ever think that adherence to some code of nobility was some sort of claim to virtue anyway? </p><p></p><p>But they'll face a lot of the same struggles. Churches and paladins in the streets of Sigil will try and silence them and remove them or "re-educate" them. People will be disinclined to believe them (perhaps the PC is a tiefling and suffers from that stigma as well!). And the campaign will be made up of the things that the PC does to convince the multiverse that they're RIGHT.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6407993, member: 2067"] The reason that it is possible for planes to shift in Planescape is because of [I]the perspective of the rest of the people in the multiverse[/I], not because of any intrinsic property of the act itself. That perspective, as far as a character is concerned, could be wrong! That's what it means to have the planes be made of belief -- [B]good and evil are defined by what the people who make the planes believe to be good and evil[/B]. That belief is subject to change, and it is also subject to re-assessment, based on the actions of those with strong convictions (like the PC's). That's part of what it means to be a PC powered by belief in PS, you have the power to change the beliefs of others, and thus the power to change what the multiverse is. The planes do not make things evil by their actions, other believing beings make things evil by believing that to be the case, and this is expressed by things like layers sliding from LG to LN. It can, because what "free of evil" means depends on what one views as part of evil, and the perspective of those in the various Good planes is that the other Good planes are not entirely free of that evil (the multiverse still contains evil, after all, and true good is triumphant). Planes dub themselves perfect, but what perfection is depends upon where one stands. If order is a prerequisite for true good, then the Chaotic Good people are less good than they could be, as bad as Lawful Evil, just less hostile about their wrongness. If independence is a prerequisite for true good, then the Lawful Good people are less good than they could be, as bad as Chaotic Evil, just less hostile about their wrongness. "True good" in this case is a good that is better than what the multiverse currently has, as that good has not been strong enough to eliminate evil. "True goodness" doesn't struggle against evil, it simply removes it, turning the hearts of psychopaths and fiends to benevolence and compassion as they come to embrace the belief themselves. This means, for instance, that Celestia isn't the most extreme LG possible (as it exists alongside all sorts of evil in the planes), that there is a higher LG that may be attained, a better multiverse possible for those who adhere to LG beliefs, one that might in fact be free of evil of all sorts (which doesn't mean free of problems, but it might mean free of fiends!). Again, [B]what is good depends on what one views as good[/B], so they've only revealed themselves to be less than fully good in the eyes of certain people. "Good" is subjective. And those views and perspectives can change, based on the actions of those with strong convictions. It's just using the perspectives of the NPC's in the setting. Those NPC's view the act as evil. They aren't necessarily correct. It's the "Peter Pan Principle." If you believe and clap your hands, Tinkerbell lives, and if you don't, she just dies. What people believe in changes reality in PS. Before the PC's arrive, the planes are a certain way because everyone generally agrees that they are that way. Once the PC's come onto the scene, "everyone" might believe something else, thanks to their actions. As a PC, just that they have a lot of work to do. Center of All. The Evil taint that shows up and the pull to the Abyss happen because of the perspectives of the infinite NPC's that make up the planes, not because of any objective truth. Objective moral and ethical position is impossible in an infinite moral and ethical space much as objective physical locations are impossible in an infinite physical space. If that fate is something that you want to avoid, you need to change those perspectives, to bring them closer to yours. You've been judged by your peers, by other people, by "society," but it's only the final state of things if you accept their belief as authoritative. If you think differently -- if you believe something else -- it is up to you to change that belief. In-setting and in-character, it might lead you to a tension. You're in the Abyss, and you think you've been put there wrongly, so you want to perhaps go plead your case in the streets of Sigil, to influence planewalkers from all over, and spread the idea that independent compassion is a greater good than externalized compassion, knowing that if you are successful, you will become the divine being you know you are in your heart. But since you are some lowly form of dribbling demon, your ability to access a portal and go to Sigil and proclaim your apparent innocence is...limited. And to climb the power structure of the Abyss is going to take some apparent cruelty and malice, as that seems to be what grants power there. So do you try and make concessions to the CE place you find yourself in to climb the power structure and go to Sigil when you can free yourself from its bonds, hoping that the small cruelties you perpetuate don't change your inherent belief in compassion and goodness? Or do you perhaps find some traveler to the Abyss as some half-formed proto-demon and beg them to take you to Sigil so that you can plead for the wrongness of your case? And then when you get to Sigil, how do you convince an audience who sees a demon known for lies and tricks that you are authentic and honest about your beliefs? Do you find and recruit Eladrin to your cause? This is a VERY PS-y character arc! More commonly, just because PC's play mortals, that arc will play out before the death of the character, so that in their life, the character changes the perspective of the planes before death. They show up as Good on detection spells and fly away to some sort of heaven after death because the planes already generally conform to their personal outlook -- heck, perhaps they are "rewarded" with a noble death at level 20 against the evil "fallen" paladin who has decided that law and order is more important than compassion and has come to slay this heretic once and for all...and this death is what it takes to convince others that they really were a good person, and the paladin really was not, and why did we ever think that adherence to some code of nobility was some sort of claim to virtue anyway? But they'll face a lot of the same struggles. Churches and paladins in the streets of Sigil will try and silence them and remove them or "re-educate" them. People will be disinclined to believe them (perhaps the PC is a tiefling and suffers from that stigma as well!). And the campaign will be made up of the things that the PC does to convince the multiverse that they're RIGHT. [/QUOTE]
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