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<blockquote data-quote="Cor_Malek" data-source="post: 5347486" data-attributes="member: 91608"><p>QFT. </p><p></p><p>I'm kind of positively surprised to see so many people interested in, and possessing solid knowledge about medieval weapons.</p><p>To elaborate a bit for anyone interested: it's problematic to talk about this wide type of steels (see also wootz*, pulad steel), as you often have several researchers having a decade-long quarrel only to realize they're talking about different things. Basically, it's steel with micro carbides as layers instead of just having a lot of carbon in the steel. The difference is like between reinforced concrete and adding rust to cement ;-)</p><p>Although many attach "damascus" label to any steel with decorated surface - even by etching. Which might seem odd, especially to someone who focuses on technology, but is not without a merit for someone who is studying it's history in Asia.</p><p></p><p>There's been a lot of false presumptions about damascus steel, mainly that there was some kind of "secret" and it was being lost. That's because facture of European made blades resembled wood, whereas the layers in oriental made ones - seemed much more tightly packed. European blades were made by forge wielding different layers, so when someone sees oriental-made sword he goes "Holy Bovine! How the heck did they merge so many?!1**" They didn't. That's what you'd do to make it more durable, and that was not their goal. The micro pattern was thought to represent waters of paradise, which is far more important since Muhammad supposedly said that the paradise is found "under shadow of swords". Sigh. Way to go and overthink different version of "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum". But I digress.</p><p></p><p>Thing is - the European variation was good <em>enough</em>. It was the durability of those blades - not religious symbolism - that attracted our warriors, and that is what they focused on. OK, they might feel silly about it today if they heard that their version missed out on carbon nanotubes in some Asian steels, but it's not like it was intended (and they'd get a gun permit instead anyways).</p><p></p><p>The name, "Damascus" is also often thought to come from crusaders who were supposedly introduced to it in said city. Which is plainly incorrect, there's no evidence for it and it was known in Europe for much longer time. As Dausuul pointed out it was however an important trading hub between Asia and Europe. They didn't produce the steel though - they were making blades from imported iron. The blade production name was being attached to the product itself, and after a while it probably just stuck - no matter what the origin of sword, not unlike post-it notes, or adidas, or xerox copies.</p><p>There's also the old arabic word <em>damas</em> for water - see previous paragraph.</p><p></p><p>One of the reasons for the long scientific quarrel, is, and pardon my bias - too many commies in the field ;-) *coughs* there, I said it. But they leave their tenures in bulk each year, so it gets easier.</p><p>Modern studies and research strongly suggest multiple origins of such steel. For example excavations and further study of steel workshops in ancient city of Merv (nowadays Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan area) demonstrated that by 800-900 AD, it was widely produced in Central Asia - and with methods and materials different than those used in India and Sri Lanka. Some researchers have a lot of trouble just letting go of the idea that there needs to be one, and <em>only one</em> area of origin for everything. And that all tech change is progressive, and technological level=cultural level. Elegant as it would be, it's not that simple.</p><p></p><p></p><p>*sigh. No, the name did <strong>not</strong> come from exclamation made on it's unique appearance.</p><p>** Because shift happens to scholars as well ;-)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cor_Malek, post: 5347486, member: 91608"] QFT. I'm kind of positively surprised to see so many people interested in, and possessing solid knowledge about medieval weapons. To elaborate a bit for anyone interested: it's problematic to talk about this wide type of steels (see also wootz*, pulad steel), as you often have several researchers having a decade-long quarrel only to realize they're talking about different things. Basically, it's steel with micro carbides as layers instead of just having a lot of carbon in the steel. The difference is like between reinforced concrete and adding rust to cement ;-) Although many attach "damascus" label to any steel with decorated surface - even by etching. Which might seem odd, especially to someone who focuses on technology, but is not without a merit for someone who is studying it's history in Asia. There's been a lot of false presumptions about damascus steel, mainly that there was some kind of "secret" and it was being lost. That's because facture of European made blades resembled wood, whereas the layers in oriental made ones - seemed much more tightly packed. European blades were made by forge wielding different layers, so when someone sees oriental-made sword he goes "Holy Bovine! How the heck did they merge so many?!1**" They didn't. That's what you'd do to make it more durable, and that was not their goal. The micro pattern was thought to represent waters of paradise, which is far more important since Muhammad supposedly said that the paradise is found "under shadow of swords". Sigh. Way to go and overthink different version of "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum". But I digress. Thing is - the European variation was good [I]enough[/I]. It was the durability of those blades - not religious symbolism - that attracted our warriors, and that is what they focused on. OK, they might feel silly about it today if they heard that their version missed out on carbon nanotubes in some Asian steels, but it's not like it was intended (and they'd get a gun permit instead anyways). The name, "Damascus" is also often thought to come from crusaders who were supposedly introduced to it in said city. Which is plainly incorrect, there's no evidence for it and it was known in Europe for much longer time. As Dausuul pointed out it was however an important trading hub between Asia and Europe. They didn't produce the steel though - they were making blades from imported iron. The blade production name was being attached to the product itself, and after a while it probably just stuck - no matter what the origin of sword, not unlike post-it notes, or adidas, or xerox copies. There's also the old arabic word [I]damas[/I] for water - see previous paragraph. One of the reasons for the long scientific quarrel, is, and pardon my bias - too many commies in the field ;-) *coughs* there, I said it. But they leave their tenures in bulk each year, so it gets easier. Modern studies and research strongly suggest multiple origins of such steel. For example excavations and further study of steel workshops in ancient city of Merv (nowadays Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan area) demonstrated that by 800-900 AD, it was widely produced in Central Asia - and with methods and materials different than those used in India and Sri Lanka. Some researchers have a lot of trouble just letting go of the idea that there needs to be one, and [I]only one[/I] area of origin for everything. And that all tech change is progressive, and technological level=cultural level. Elegant as it would be, it's not that simple. *sigh. No, the name did [B]not[/B] come from exclamation made on it's unique appearance. ** Because shift happens to scholars as well ;-) [/QUOTE]
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