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The "Powergamers (Min/maxer)" vs "Alpha Gamers" vs "Role Play Gamers" vs "GM" balance mismatch "problem(s)"
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7280236" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Sure. Taken to the logical conclusion, you could, in essence, run one game for each player. The DPR type plays a dueling game. The skirimisher a tactical game. The diplomancer a negotiation strategy game. The trapfinder a treasure-hunting game. Etc... Meanwhile the other players fiddle with their mobile devices. </p><p> Lots of things can. One of them is having everyone participating & engaged, or at least interested, in as much of the game as possible.</p><p></p><p> It's just a generation-gap in jargon. Back in the day, I'd've never said "so-and-so's TWF build exhibits statistically excessive DPR" I'd've said "so-and-so's double-specialist is <em>gross</em>."</p><p></p><p> In 5e & the classic game, if you include rulings, options, & variants in 'GM decisions,' sure.</p><p></p><p> I've heard those complaints from players about other players plenty of times. </p><p></p><p> What? You gained levels a bit faster than everyone else, but that hardly helped, all your advancement tables sucked, your 'special' abilities weren't. And it wasn't the low-score dumping ground, either, all the 'big 4' tied for lowest stat requirements - a 9 in primary, and one 'dump stat' that could be less than 6. (Fighter it was STR & INT, cleric WIS & DEX - MU & Thief the reverse, respectively). You could become an MU with terrible stats, but it'd hurt your whole career - unable to learn the higher level spells, terrible know spell %, etc, not to mention abysmal AC & hps. As a cleric, bad stats would hurt you at the start, particularly due to lack of bonus spells, and spell failure would also plague you. As a Thief your special abilities would be even less special, your AC & hps would suck, and you'd probably stay terrible - but, there was one magic item that'd up and give you an 18 DEX, so if you ever found it, you were saved, sorta. </p><p></p><p>The fighter, OTOH, deriving it's AC from the best armor, and having a nice big HD, actually could endure poor stats, and it had Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Girdle of Giant Strength waiting for it at higher levels. </p><p></p><p> Some team endeavors have glory positions that really are more important and drive the success of the whole team. Some pretend to, because it's just more exciting to have a source of inspiration like that. And, most have un-sung positions that are actually more important than the glory position. </p><p></p><p>But those are team sports, not RPGs. In a cooperative boardgame or an RPG the point isn't giving the spectators one name to chant for and idolize to drive ticket sales, or one player to inspire the other players with his greatness, or even an 'anchor' to keep the team solid - the point is for everyone to contribute to success, or, in the case of the boardgame, everyone to have a fair shot at it.</p><p></p><p>That's fair. Not s'much, if that's all you're doing. </p><p></p><p> Not starting with it. The structure is usually more along the lines of debunking a criticism of a system. </p><p></p><p>So: thread starts: "Such and such game system/element sucks like a super-massive black hole, because [insert mathematical proof]." </p><p>Followed by multiple posts along the lines of: "That's only if you optimize, because you used math, so it must be optimization. Optimization is terrible and y'all need to roleplay and care about the fluff, story, and hanging out with friends more, and you'll see the game is perfect."</p><p>That then degenerate as you describe - successfully deflecting attention away from the metaphorical super-massive black-hole.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7280236, member: 996"] Sure. Taken to the logical conclusion, you could, in essence, run one game for each player. The DPR type plays a dueling game. The skirimisher a tactical game. The diplomancer a negotiation strategy game. The trapfinder a treasure-hunting game. Etc... Meanwhile the other players fiddle with their mobile devices. Lots of things can. One of them is having everyone participating & engaged, or at least interested, in as much of the game as possible. It's just a generation-gap in jargon. Back in the day, I'd've never said "so-and-so's TWF build exhibits statistically excessive DPR" I'd've said "so-and-so's double-specialist is [i]gross[/i]." In 5e & the classic game, if you include rulings, options, & variants in 'GM decisions,' sure. I've heard those complaints from players about other players plenty of times. What? You gained levels a bit faster than everyone else, but that hardly helped, all your advancement tables sucked, your 'special' abilities weren't. And it wasn't the low-score dumping ground, either, all the 'big 4' tied for lowest stat requirements - a 9 in primary, and one 'dump stat' that could be less than 6. (Fighter it was STR & INT, cleric WIS & DEX - MU & Thief the reverse, respectively). You could become an MU with terrible stats, but it'd hurt your whole career - unable to learn the higher level spells, terrible know spell %, etc, not to mention abysmal AC & hps. As a cleric, bad stats would hurt you at the start, particularly due to lack of bonus spells, and spell failure would also plague you. As a Thief your special abilities would be even less special, your AC & hps would suck, and you'd probably stay terrible - but, there was one magic item that'd up and give you an 18 DEX, so if you ever found it, you were saved, sorta. The fighter, OTOH, deriving it's AC from the best armor, and having a nice big HD, actually could endure poor stats, and it had Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Girdle of Giant Strength waiting for it at higher levels. Some team endeavors have glory positions that really are more important and drive the success of the whole team. Some pretend to, because it's just more exciting to have a source of inspiration like that. And, most have un-sung positions that are actually more important than the glory position. But those are team sports, not RPGs. In a cooperative boardgame or an RPG the point isn't giving the spectators one name to chant for and idolize to drive ticket sales, or one player to inspire the other players with his greatness, or even an 'anchor' to keep the team solid - the point is for everyone to contribute to success, or, in the case of the boardgame, everyone to have a fair shot at it. That's fair. Not s'much, if that's all you're doing. Not starting with it. The structure is usually more along the lines of debunking a criticism of a system. So: thread starts: "Such and such game system/element sucks like a super-massive black hole, because [insert mathematical proof]." Followed by multiple posts along the lines of: "That's only if you optimize, because you used math, so it must be optimization. Optimization is terrible and y'all need to roleplay and care about the fluff, story, and hanging out with friends more, and you'll see the game is perfect." That then degenerate as you describe - successfully deflecting attention away from the metaphorical super-massive black-hole. [/QUOTE]
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The "Powergamers (Min/maxer)" vs "Alpha Gamers" vs "Role Play Gamers" vs "GM" balance mismatch "problem(s)"
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