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The "Powergamers (Min/maxer)" vs "Alpha Gamers" vs "Role Play Gamers" vs "GM" balance mismatch "problem(s)"
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7282198" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>And interesting response from someone that said a TPK is <em>always </em>on the DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're still removing agency. For instance, the last TPK I ran had the players extending their day because they chose to press on and find the source of their current crisis. I foreshadowed a dragon heavily, and they even talked out the possibility of a dragon before entering the dragon lair. The dragon was level appropriate, single deadly for their level, in lair, no legendary actions (young adult black). The dragon began the encounter by talking to the party (it had become accustomed to tribute from the forces in the area trying to bribe the dragon to 1) not eat them and 2) help their side. The party decided to insult the dragon and directly challenge it. The dragon responded violently. The party made some crucial tactical mistakes that allowed the dragon to divide them and attack from darkness. The party had a clear line of retreat, but chose to press the fight hoping to overwhelm the dragon before their losses went to high. Didn't work out.</p><p></p><p>So,</p><p>1) threat foreshadowed</p><p>2) threat began with parley</p><p>3) party chose to engage</p><p>4) party chose to not retreat through clear lines of escape</p><p>5) party chose to keep fighting hoping to win</p><p>6) threat was appropriate to party level -- ie, not an unwinnable fight, but a challenging one</p><p></p><p>Your argument is that I, as DM, allowed that TPK to happing because I could have stopped it. I reject that idea wholly. My job as DM is to frame situations that the players then engage, and be an honest referee of the outcomes. If I changed that encounter or added something else to it just to save the party, I'm invalidating their choices, choices made with full understanding of the situation and consequences. I don't DM to provide a safe space for characters, I DM to provide a fun game for my players -- and part of that is allowing their choices to have meaning, good and bad.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I can DM unfairly and place challenges far above party capability. Yes, I can DM unfairly and not provide clear descriptions or use gotcha gimmicks. Yes, I can DM unfairly and use deus ex machina to rescue characters from the poor decisions their players make. But I don't do those things, and so, TPKs are not on me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7282198, member: 16814"] And interesting response from someone that said a TPK is [I]always [/I]on the DM. You're still removing agency. For instance, the last TPK I ran had the players extending their day because they chose to press on and find the source of their current crisis. I foreshadowed a dragon heavily, and they even talked out the possibility of a dragon before entering the dragon lair. The dragon was level appropriate, single deadly for their level, in lair, no legendary actions (young adult black). The dragon began the encounter by talking to the party (it had become accustomed to tribute from the forces in the area trying to bribe the dragon to 1) not eat them and 2) help their side. The party decided to insult the dragon and directly challenge it. The dragon responded violently. The party made some crucial tactical mistakes that allowed the dragon to divide them and attack from darkness. The party had a clear line of retreat, but chose to press the fight hoping to overwhelm the dragon before their losses went to high. Didn't work out. So, 1) threat foreshadowed 2) threat began with parley 3) party chose to engage 4) party chose to not retreat through clear lines of escape 5) party chose to keep fighting hoping to win 6) threat was appropriate to party level -- ie, not an unwinnable fight, but a challenging one Your argument is that I, as DM, allowed that TPK to happing because I could have stopped it. I reject that idea wholly. My job as DM is to frame situations that the players then engage, and be an honest referee of the outcomes. If I changed that encounter or added something else to it just to save the party, I'm invalidating their choices, choices made with full understanding of the situation and consequences. I don't DM to provide a safe space for characters, I DM to provide a fun game for my players -- and part of that is allowing their choices to have meaning, good and bad. Yes, I can DM unfairly and place challenges far above party capability. Yes, I can DM unfairly and not provide clear descriptions or use gotcha gimmicks. Yes, I can DM unfairly and use deus ex machina to rescue characters from the poor decisions their players make. But I don't do those things, and so, TPKs are not on me. [/QUOTE]
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