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The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]
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<blockquote data-quote="Banshee16" data-source="post: 3568910" data-attributes="member: 7883"><p>Well, that's pretty complex....among other things, fantasy worlds *don't* assume that humanity is in such poor condition as it was in the real world...particularly *because* of magic. </p><p></p><p>Families don't *have* to be that large, because clerics and low-level magical healing are around, which have far better capabilities to sustain healthy populations than humans in reality did. Birth control, as per books such as the FRCS, is available.</p><p></p><p>In 3E, there is very little magic to allow humans to extend their lifespans, unless you go to non-core resources.....in which case it is just as available to elves as it is to humans. And though elves are unlikely to use it, there are very few humans with the resources to get it also. There are no potions of longevity or philters of youth in 3E. Scarred Lands had a few spells which could reduce age....but you're looking at needing an arcane spellcaster of at least 9th level to cast them. And how many of *them* are there around? Not nearly as many as there are characters of non-arcane spellcaster classes, and especially, not nearly as many as you have commoners, experts etc. of all levels, who have no access to that magic.</p><p></p><p>In DL, you've got a few longlived human characters....not many. Fistandantilus and....um....that's about it. All the other greats, like Par-Salian, Justarius, etc. lived within the normal human limits. In GH, you've basically got the Circle of Eight, I guess. And in FR, the Chosen. And at last count, there are, what, 10 of them? Out of millions of humans? I think the availability of that magic is far less than you've portrayed.</p><p></p><p>As to other elements, such as elven slow reproduction, etc. most of the references to it tend to be in non-core supplements. I think the only WotC 3rd Ed. books which even come close to talking about it are Drow of the Underdark, and the Complete Wild. I'd need to review those to check. Most other references are in books about elves, which often combine the whole slow reproduction thing with rules/text about how resistant they are to regular diseases. So if you want to take the optional negatives, you should also likely take the optional positives as well.....which makes it more like:</p><p></p><p>Elves live long</p><p>Elves have few children</p><p>Elves are very resistant to non-magical diseases, and are generally immune to most ailments that humans fall prey to.</p><p></p><p>Similar to with the other thread....it's your campaign, you can do what you want. But according to the rules as written, most of those limitations don't exist. Much of your argument regarding baelnorns, nymphs etc. draw on resources such as Cormanthor, which in turn include assumptions from the Complete Book of Elves in 2nd Ed. You can't really have one without taking the other.</p><p></p><p>Your point regarding making merry etc. is valid. I don't have an answer to that one. I'd assume that they simply eat different things....more "forest food" than humans do....stuff that can be easily hunted and gathered. The rest, they probably manage through magic, since they have mages and clerics who aren't spending all their time figuring out better ways to blow stuff up or make themselves live forever. Maybe their spellcasters spend more time figuring out magic to help support their populations.</p><p></p><p>Frankly, aside from disease, I'd be wondering, on a statistical level, what are the odds that an elf (or a human with longevity magic) would ever make it to the limits of their lifespan in the first place? Assuming good health that whole time, statistically, what are the odds that they'll get kicked in the head by a cranky horse, fall down an open sewer and drown, get a piano dropped on them, slip in the shower, or otherwise fall victim to some lethal accident before they ever reach 600 years of life?</p><p></p><p>In my campaign, I've generally used the example set in the DL book "Otherlands", where it mentions that Dargonesti elves age at the same rate as humans until age 14, and then slow down, and take until about 35 to be as mature as an 18 year old human, and finally slow down to age like 1 year for every 10 (roughly) for the rest of their lifespan. I've also gone with the assumption that they have very strong immune systems, and generally recover from most ailments, and have good healing abilities, such as that unless damage is extreme, they'll heal well from most non-life threatening injuries. Doesn't do anything if someone wacks an arm off with an axe, or they get bitten by a werewolf, or hit by a plague spell.....but gives them a higher chance of realizing that 500+ year lifespan. So all generally non-gaming related things, that shouldn't have an effect during an adventurer's career. How many adventurers have you seen a DM inflict pneumonia, or tb, or bubonic plague or whatever on? Probably very few. But something like mummy rot, or other magical diseases? Probably more often. And elves would be just as vulnerable to them as humans are.</p><p></p><p>Of course, all of this is assuming logic, and most elements of the game are relatively illogical on one level or another, so...</p><p></p><p>Banshee</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Banshee16, post: 3568910, member: 7883"] Well, that's pretty complex....among other things, fantasy worlds *don't* assume that humanity is in such poor condition as it was in the real world...particularly *because* of magic. Families don't *have* to be that large, because clerics and low-level magical healing are around, which have far better capabilities to sustain healthy populations than humans in reality did. Birth control, as per books such as the FRCS, is available. In 3E, there is very little magic to allow humans to extend their lifespans, unless you go to non-core resources.....in which case it is just as available to elves as it is to humans. And though elves are unlikely to use it, there are very few humans with the resources to get it also. There are no potions of longevity or philters of youth in 3E. Scarred Lands had a few spells which could reduce age....but you're looking at needing an arcane spellcaster of at least 9th level to cast them. And how many of *them* are there around? Not nearly as many as there are characters of non-arcane spellcaster classes, and especially, not nearly as many as you have commoners, experts etc. of all levels, who have no access to that magic. In DL, you've got a few longlived human characters....not many. Fistandantilus and....um....that's about it. All the other greats, like Par-Salian, Justarius, etc. lived within the normal human limits. In GH, you've basically got the Circle of Eight, I guess. And in FR, the Chosen. And at last count, there are, what, 10 of them? Out of millions of humans? I think the availability of that magic is far less than you've portrayed. As to other elements, such as elven slow reproduction, etc. most of the references to it tend to be in non-core supplements. I think the only WotC 3rd Ed. books which even come close to talking about it are Drow of the Underdark, and the Complete Wild. I'd need to review those to check. Most other references are in books about elves, which often combine the whole slow reproduction thing with rules/text about how resistant they are to regular diseases. So if you want to take the optional negatives, you should also likely take the optional positives as well.....which makes it more like: Elves live long Elves have few children Elves are very resistant to non-magical diseases, and are generally immune to most ailments that humans fall prey to. Similar to with the other thread....it's your campaign, you can do what you want. But according to the rules as written, most of those limitations don't exist. Much of your argument regarding baelnorns, nymphs etc. draw on resources such as Cormanthor, which in turn include assumptions from the Complete Book of Elves in 2nd Ed. You can't really have one without taking the other. Your point regarding making merry etc. is valid. I don't have an answer to that one. I'd assume that they simply eat different things....more "forest food" than humans do....stuff that can be easily hunted and gathered. The rest, they probably manage through magic, since they have mages and clerics who aren't spending all their time figuring out better ways to blow stuff up or make themselves live forever. Maybe their spellcasters spend more time figuring out magic to help support their populations. Frankly, aside from disease, I'd be wondering, on a statistical level, what are the odds that an elf (or a human with longevity magic) would ever make it to the limits of their lifespan in the first place? Assuming good health that whole time, statistically, what are the odds that they'll get kicked in the head by a cranky horse, fall down an open sewer and drown, get a piano dropped on them, slip in the shower, or otherwise fall victim to some lethal accident before they ever reach 600 years of life? In my campaign, I've generally used the example set in the DL book "Otherlands", where it mentions that Dargonesti elves age at the same rate as humans until age 14, and then slow down, and take until about 35 to be as mature as an 18 year old human, and finally slow down to age like 1 year for every 10 (roughly) for the rest of their lifespan. I've also gone with the assumption that they have very strong immune systems, and generally recover from most ailments, and have good healing abilities, such as that unless damage is extreme, they'll heal well from most non-life threatening injuries. Doesn't do anything if someone wacks an arm off with an axe, or they get bitten by a werewolf, or hit by a plague spell.....but gives them a higher chance of realizing that 500+ year lifespan. So all generally non-gaming related things, that shouldn't have an effect during an adventurer's career. How many adventurers have you seen a DM inflict pneumonia, or tb, or bubonic plague or whatever on? Probably very few. But something like mummy rot, or other magical diseases? Probably more often. And elves would be just as vulnerable to them as humans are. Of course, all of this is assuming logic, and most elements of the game are relatively illogical on one level or another, so... Banshee [/QUOTE]
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