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The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]
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<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 3592017" data-attributes="member: 2020"><p>If you look at the *large picture* of what I have painted for my home setting, you will see that 'normal' elves of ECL 0 out of the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook are really not suited to that setting.</p><p> They tend to get swept up in the great events and cataclysmic wars that sweep the world, and end up exterminated.</p><p></p><p> Any and all of the ECL 0 races, including humans, have the same problems. And the task of finding a way to survive in spite of their weakness, is their problem and their problem alone: Nobody else is going to help out.</p><p> For that matter, races with higher ECLs must find their own answers also. The drow did *not* do so, and Vecna obliterated them. Completely. Finally. Absolutely. Extinct Greyspace wide!</p><p></p><p> This is not The Land. Thomas Covenant, Ur-Lord and White Gold Wielder, is not going to come along with The Wild Magic That Destroys Peace, and save everyone. (I happen to like Stephen Donaldson's works.)</p><p> </p><p> -</p><p></p><p> Tolkien created the Institution of Elven Failure, and it haunts books and settings alike today, and the elves just do not seem to be able to escape it.</p><p></p><p> ANY people who choose to stand as a rock, will ultimately fall.</p><p> Mount Everest, will eventually be at the bottom of the ocean.</p><p> And elves, in their 'classic' portrayal, from the Noldor to Evermeet to Silvanesti, are extremely bad about trying to stand as rocks.</p><p> Even the infamous Melniboneans insist on standing defiant and steady, like a rock, in a tumultuous world.</p><p></p><p> Seasons come, and seasons go. Nations rise and nations fall. Cultures flourish and cultures fail. The years pass by, and history sweeps along.</p><p> In our real world, *no* nation or people or culture that stood like a rock has *ever* survived (except modern cultures that haven't had time to be destroyed or fall yet.)</p><p> Examples of fallen cultures, lost through time or war, abound: Sumeria, the Ancient Egyptians, the People of the Indus Valley, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Ancient Persians, the Etrucians, the Gauls, the Druids, the Celts, the Roman Empire itself, the Parthians, the Vikings (after their victories, came their decline and absorption), countless peoples swept away in the Mongol Invasion - and then the Mongols themselves faded and were absorbed, and so on.</p><p></p><p> The elves - the 'classic' elves - seek to defy the reality of history, and remain as stawart, unchanging, rocklike, holding out their own form of light to illuminate the world around them.</p><p> And they fail and fall. For history is greater than the elves, and it's mandates are stronger than they.</p><p> Even Netheril could not avoid the dictates of history. Eventually, even the greatest nations and highest pinnacles fall. (As I said, one day Mount Everest will be at the bottom of the ocean. It was at the bottom of the ocean not too long ago.)</p><p></p><p> My Elves of Haldendreeva are *aware* of this reality, of the reality of the changing world, the sweep of history, the inevitability of change, the unrelenting threat of war, and the necessity of adaptation.</p><p> That is why they have their supernatural mental will, supernatural spiritual strength, and truly supernatural desire to continue living. (In modern Haldendreevan elves, this love of life applies to other life, as the elven nature asserts itself over the Haldendreevan taint.)</p><p></p><p> They developed this strength out of horrific hardship, when they discovered no other way existed to survive, and turning to their primordial *elven* selves was the answer.</p><p> Had they continued to pursue *this* course, and not turn to magical spells as humans would (and thus start the madness of the Haldendreevan Wars) perhaps they might have evolved into another race, or even back into the Faerie from which elves are descended. They might have transcended reality in an elvish way, and defied Vecna in that manner, instead of twisting reality with human spells and human means.</p><p> But after the Ritual, cast in good faith, things went wrong, and the elves took the wrong answer to the threat from Vecna.</p><p></p><p> The Elves of Haldendreeva today, mostly free of the taint, strive to find that better answer.</p><p></p><p> -</p><p></p><p> So are ECL 0 3rd Edition elves doomed?</p><p></p><p> In my home setting, yes.</p><p> In the canon settings, no but they are having a lousy time of it.</p><p> In the books? Sometimes, sometimes they merely have a lousy time of it, and in a few cases they triumph. Tolkien's legacy remains, but authors write as they choose.</p><p> In your home campaign? Your elves can survive if you want them to. That's a truism.</p><p></p><p> And yet ... the logic of history, the inexorability of it's sweeping power, do seem to doom all elves. It's in the Big Picture I drew. It's implied in real world history. It's implied in countless fantasy histories, which are derived from real history. It's implied in the canon settings. It's implied in countless home settings, regardless of the DM's conceptions (!)</p><p></p><p> Elves must be truly *special* people, to transcend history and fate and change and all adversary, and remain for truly long periods of time (tens of thousands of years or longer) within the weave of fate.</p><p></p><p> (muses)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 3592017, member: 2020"] If you look at the *large picture* of what I have painted for my home setting, you will see that 'normal' elves of ECL 0 out of the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook are really not suited to that setting. They tend to get swept up in the great events and cataclysmic wars that sweep the world, and end up exterminated. Any and all of the ECL 0 races, including humans, have the same problems. And the task of finding a way to survive in spite of their weakness, is their problem and their problem alone: Nobody else is going to help out. For that matter, races with higher ECLs must find their own answers also. The drow did *not* do so, and Vecna obliterated them. Completely. Finally. Absolutely. Extinct Greyspace wide! This is not The Land. Thomas Covenant, Ur-Lord and White Gold Wielder, is not going to come along with The Wild Magic That Destroys Peace, and save everyone. (I happen to like Stephen Donaldson's works.) - Tolkien created the Institution of Elven Failure, and it haunts books and settings alike today, and the elves just do not seem to be able to escape it. ANY people who choose to stand as a rock, will ultimately fall. Mount Everest, will eventually be at the bottom of the ocean. And elves, in their 'classic' portrayal, from the Noldor to Evermeet to Silvanesti, are extremely bad about trying to stand as rocks. Even the infamous Melniboneans insist on standing defiant and steady, like a rock, in a tumultuous world. Seasons come, and seasons go. Nations rise and nations fall. Cultures flourish and cultures fail. The years pass by, and history sweeps along. In our real world, *no* nation or people or culture that stood like a rock has *ever* survived (except modern cultures that haven't had time to be destroyed or fall yet.) Examples of fallen cultures, lost through time or war, abound: Sumeria, the Ancient Egyptians, the People of the Indus Valley, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Ancient Persians, the Etrucians, the Gauls, the Druids, the Celts, the Roman Empire itself, the Parthians, the Vikings (after their victories, came their decline and absorption), countless peoples swept away in the Mongol Invasion - and then the Mongols themselves faded and were absorbed, and so on. The elves - the 'classic' elves - seek to defy the reality of history, and remain as stawart, unchanging, rocklike, holding out their own form of light to illuminate the world around them. And they fail and fall. For history is greater than the elves, and it's mandates are stronger than they. Even Netheril could not avoid the dictates of history. Eventually, even the greatest nations and highest pinnacles fall. (As I said, one day Mount Everest will be at the bottom of the ocean. It was at the bottom of the ocean not too long ago.) My Elves of Haldendreeva are *aware* of this reality, of the reality of the changing world, the sweep of history, the inevitability of change, the unrelenting threat of war, and the necessity of adaptation. That is why they have their supernatural mental will, supernatural spiritual strength, and truly supernatural desire to continue living. (In modern Haldendreevan elves, this love of life applies to other life, as the elven nature asserts itself over the Haldendreevan taint.) They developed this strength out of horrific hardship, when they discovered no other way existed to survive, and turning to their primordial *elven* selves was the answer. Had they continued to pursue *this* course, and not turn to magical spells as humans would (and thus start the madness of the Haldendreevan Wars) perhaps they might have evolved into another race, or even back into the Faerie from which elves are descended. They might have transcended reality in an elvish way, and defied Vecna in that manner, instead of twisting reality with human spells and human means. But after the Ritual, cast in good faith, things went wrong, and the elves took the wrong answer to the threat from Vecna. The Elves of Haldendreeva today, mostly free of the taint, strive to find that better answer. - So are ECL 0 3rd Edition elves doomed? In my home setting, yes. In the canon settings, no but they are having a lousy time of it. In the books? Sometimes, sometimes they merely have a lousy time of it, and in a few cases they triumph. Tolkien's legacy remains, but authors write as they choose. In your home campaign? Your elves can survive if you want them to. That's a truism. And yet ... the logic of history, the inexorability of it's sweeping power, do seem to doom all elves. It's in the Big Picture I drew. It's implied in real world history. It's implied in countless fantasy histories, which are derived from real history. It's implied in the canon settings. It's implied in countless home settings, regardless of the DM's conceptions (!) Elves must be truly *special* people, to transcend history and fate and change and all adversary, and remain for truly long periods of time (tens of thousands of years or longer) within the weave of fate. (muses) [/QUOTE]
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