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The Problem with Skill Challenges and a Solution I Use
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6176702" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>Well, I have three thoughts, the third one being the most important / complex.</p><p></p><p>First of all, nothing in your "solution" prevents a player from rolling really high and beating the odds. That's still possible regardless of whether there is a contest or a straight DC.</p><p></p><p>Second, you risk double penalizing certain PCs. Take your elf in a tug-of-war with an ogre. You think to yourself, the elf is so scrawny with a low strength stat compared to this massive hulking ogre, so it's very hard (DC 20). Now take the same situation only with a burly human warrior instead of the elf; you might think to yourself, well he's trained for physical contests and has a high strength stat, so it's only hard (DC 15). Isn't this what the Strength stat is supposed to address, however? Is a force multiplier really necessary to exaggerate the Strength difference between elf and ogre / human and ogre?</p><p></p><p>Third, and most important, I don't think the problem is in the randomness of the d20 or player luck or what have you. If that really was the issue you could replace d20 with 3d6 or 2d10 to reduce randomness. Rather, the problem is interpretation of die results. Take your Insight check example. Your solution is to just hitch the DC ever higher to avoid a PC acting as a human lie detector. Instead I would propose that's not how Insight works, nor Perception, nor any of the social skills which can be problematic. For a really good breakdown of how to use Insight correctly, check out: <a href="http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/11/serious-skills-insight/" target="_blank">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/11/serious-skills-insight/</a></p><p></p><p>To sum up the link: Insight is global (about the entire demeanor of an NPC), not local (rolled for each and any phrase uttered that might be a lie). Here's an example:</p><p></p><p><strong>DM:</strong><em> Your NPC companion points you thru the tangle of buildings in the thieves' district to a dark alleyway with a single door lit by a blue lantern at the end.</em></p><p><strong>Player:</strong><em> Is the NPC hiding something?</em> *Rolls really high*</p><p><strong>DM:</strong><em> The NPC keeps looking over his shoulder like he is nervous or expecting to be back stabbed at any moment. He has been very cooperative, but his words have been terse, like he is revealing only precisely what you ask.</em> </p><p></p><p>Notice the DM did not say "yes, he's lying to you."</p><p></p><p>Now it's up to the players to converse more with the NPC, threaten him, or use what they already know to decide whether the NPC's jitteriness is because he is being coerced by the party to guide them, because the NPC has bad history with the thieves' guild, or because the NPC is setting them up for an ambush.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 6176702, member: 20323"] Well, I have three thoughts, the third one being the most important / complex. First of all, nothing in your "solution" prevents a player from rolling really high and beating the odds. That's still possible regardless of whether there is a contest or a straight DC. Second, you risk double penalizing certain PCs. Take your elf in a tug-of-war with an ogre. You think to yourself, the elf is so scrawny with a low strength stat compared to this massive hulking ogre, so it's very hard (DC 20). Now take the same situation only with a burly human warrior instead of the elf; you might think to yourself, well he's trained for physical contests and has a high strength stat, so it's only hard (DC 15). Isn't this what the Strength stat is supposed to address, however? Is a force multiplier really necessary to exaggerate the Strength difference between elf and ogre / human and ogre? Third, and most important, I don't think the problem is in the randomness of the d20 or player luck or what have you. If that really was the issue you could replace d20 with 3d6 or 2d10 to reduce randomness. Rather, the problem is interpretation of die results. Take your Insight check example. Your solution is to just hitch the DC ever higher to avoid a PC acting as a human lie detector. Instead I would propose that's not how Insight works, nor Perception, nor any of the social skills which can be problematic. For a really good breakdown of how to use Insight correctly, check out: [url]http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/11/serious-skills-insight/[/url] To sum up the link: Insight is global (about the entire demeanor of an NPC), not local (rolled for each and any phrase uttered that might be a lie). Here's an example: [b]DM:[/b][i] Your NPC companion points you thru the tangle of buildings in the thieves' district to a dark alleyway with a single door lit by a blue lantern at the end.[/i] [b]Player:[/b][i] Is the NPC hiding something?[/i] *Rolls really high* [b]DM:[/b][i] The NPC keeps looking over his shoulder like he is nervous or expecting to be back stabbed at any moment. He has been very cooperative, but his words have been terse, like he is revealing only precisely what you ask.[/i] Notice the DM did not say "yes, he's lying to you." Now it's up to the players to converse more with the NPC, threaten him, or use what they already know to decide whether the NPC's jitteriness is because he is being coerced by the party to guide them, because the NPC has bad history with the thieves' guild, or because the NPC is setting them up for an ambush. [/QUOTE]
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