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The roots of 4e exposed?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7461695" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>The flaw here is that this is not something DESIGNERS can work with. When they are relegated to making every single non-full-casting class basically irrelevant in most play, that is a huge roadblock to doing all sorts of things with the game. This is the fundamental aspect of 3.x which basically demanded the creation of a new edition at some point. The 3e paradigm is simply not suited to vast swaths of fantasy, even within what D&D could do in principle. If you're going to gut the whole thing anyway, then you might as well tinker... </p><p></p><p>I mean, there's no specific reason why d20, as it was envisaged in the 3e era, cannot form the basis of a perfectly good FRPG, but its HARD to do because 3e is already sucking up that air. D20 Modern was reasonably successful, because it did exactly that, it tossed casting and did away with most of the problematic class mechanics. Things like Iron Heroes worked OK, but just can't compete with D&D. PF hit on what was obviously a solid middle ground, they didn't fix the issues, but they did rework a lot of the details enough to make a game that was both 3.x and at the same time not QUITE 3.x. It is interesting to see however that PF2 is going down the 4e path, because sooner or later designers just get tired of what they can't do on the 3e chassis.</p><p></p><p>And I totally disagree with you Max. It has very little to do with caster stats and some certain items. Nobody is going to deliberately run dumb casters in 3.x. So any limitations put in place by below 16 on a prime stat is meaningless, and most people who are going to seriously play a wizard will give him an 18 INT right off. That's all it really takes. One feat to get rid of interruptions of casting, and a couple other modest tweaks, and you're gold. Even without those you're still tier 1 and the non-casters are starting out behind you at level 1 and getting further behind with every level. Fighter types terrible save progression is just icing on the cake! </p><p></p><p>This is the nature of 3e, it just is.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7461695, member: 82106"] The flaw here is that this is not something DESIGNERS can work with. When they are relegated to making every single non-full-casting class basically irrelevant in most play, that is a huge roadblock to doing all sorts of things with the game. This is the fundamental aspect of 3.x which basically demanded the creation of a new edition at some point. The 3e paradigm is simply not suited to vast swaths of fantasy, even within what D&D could do in principle. If you're going to gut the whole thing anyway, then you might as well tinker... I mean, there's no specific reason why d20, as it was envisaged in the 3e era, cannot form the basis of a perfectly good FRPG, but its HARD to do because 3e is already sucking up that air. D20 Modern was reasonably successful, because it did exactly that, it tossed casting and did away with most of the problematic class mechanics. Things like Iron Heroes worked OK, but just can't compete with D&D. PF hit on what was obviously a solid middle ground, they didn't fix the issues, but they did rework a lot of the details enough to make a game that was both 3.x and at the same time not QUITE 3.x. It is interesting to see however that PF2 is going down the 4e path, because sooner or later designers just get tired of what they can't do on the 3e chassis. And I totally disagree with you Max. It has very little to do with caster stats and some certain items. Nobody is going to deliberately run dumb casters in 3.x. So any limitations put in place by below 16 on a prime stat is meaningless, and most people who are going to seriously play a wizard will give him an 18 INT right off. That's all it really takes. One feat to get rid of interruptions of casting, and a couple other modest tweaks, and you're gold. Even without those you're still tier 1 and the non-casters are starting out behind you at level 1 and getting further behind with every level. Fighter types terrible save progression is just icing on the cake! This is the nature of 3e, it just is. [/QUOTE]
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