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The roots of 4e exposed?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7463365" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>As I've said, I'm suspicious of appeals to popularity in any form. On top of that, consider what it meant to be a 4e fan. It meant you gave the new ed a fair chance, even when negative reviews cane out, even as the edition war heated up, and misinformation became common wisdom. They gave it enough if a chance to come to understand and appreciate a very different game. </p><p></p><p>4e fans may be disappointed in 5e in some ways, but, past behavior indicates they'll've given it every chance. And, while it's not the best or most ambitious D&D ever, it is studiedly, the most conventional and least offensive, and it is not at all hard to come to understand and appreciate. If you doubt that 4e fans are OK with 5e, I offer the lack of edition warring against 5e as evidence - the harshest critics if 5e are 3.5/PF fans.</p><p></p><p>If an alternative that was kinda maybe a bit like 4e were to appeal more, 13A was out before 5e, anyway. So I would not expect disgruntled former 4e fans to be anxious to move to PF2, for, like 13A or 5e, being maybe a bit like 4e.</p><p></p><p> It would be deeply ironic. </p><p></p><p> I was being a little too terse in pursuit of pithy, there, I guess.</p><p></p><p>Fans of the classic game have, and had even when 4e was the current ed, significant support in the OSR. Fans of 3.5 have, and had even when 4e was the current ed, significant support in the form of 3pp product, most lavishly, Pathfinder.</p><p></p><p>4e fans do not now, and have not had since 2012, that luxury. It may be just an artifact of WotCs business missteps leaving the system in a legal mess, but it does mean that what 4e fans want: 4e, simply does not matter.</p><p>Because they're not going to get it.</p><p></p><p> This oft-repeated appeal to popularity is, as I have alluded to, not something I find useful. There's no telling what might appeal to a larger audience, because only that classic framework has ever had meaningful access to potential new players. TTRPGs that aren't D&D are virtually invisible to the mainstream, and the most deviant version of D&D was subjected to such a torrent of misinformation, that it's remarkable anyone sought it out, at all.</p><p></p><p>"Gatekeeping" came up in another thread, and, though it may be (outside the edition war) more coincidence than volition, ours is a gate-kept community.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You keep a hobbyist pursuit relatively isolated and basically unchanged for 25 years, folks're gonna get set in their ways. And the trickle of new folks joining it will learn those ways....</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7463365, member: 996"] As I've said, I'm suspicious of appeals to popularity in any form. On top of that, consider what it meant to be a 4e fan. It meant you gave the new ed a fair chance, even when negative reviews cane out, even as the edition war heated up, and misinformation became common wisdom. They gave it enough if a chance to come to understand and appreciate a very different game. 4e fans may be disappointed in 5e in some ways, but, past behavior indicates they'll've given it every chance. And, while it's not the best or most ambitious D&D ever, it is studiedly, the most conventional and least offensive, and it is not at all hard to come to understand and appreciate. If you doubt that 4e fans are OK with 5e, I offer the lack of edition warring against 5e as evidence - the harshest critics if 5e are 3.5/PF fans. If an alternative that was kinda maybe a bit like 4e were to appeal more, 13A was out before 5e, anyway. So I would not expect disgruntled former 4e fans to be anxious to move to PF2, for, like 13A or 5e, being maybe a bit like 4e. It would be deeply ironic. I was being a little too terse in pursuit of pithy, there, I guess. Fans of the classic game have, and had even when 4e was the current ed, significant support in the OSR. Fans of 3.5 have, and had even when 4e was the current ed, significant support in the form of 3pp product, most lavishly, Pathfinder. 4e fans do not now, and have not had since 2012, that luxury. It may be just an artifact of WotCs business missteps leaving the system in a legal mess, but it does mean that what 4e fans want: 4e, simply does not matter. Because they're not going to get it. This oft-repeated appeal to popularity is, as I have alluded to, not something I find useful. There's no telling what might appeal to a larger audience, because only that classic framework has ever had meaningful access to potential new players. TTRPGs that aren't D&D are virtually invisible to the mainstream, and the most deviant version of D&D was subjected to such a torrent of misinformation, that it's remarkable anyone sought it out, at all. "Gatekeeping" came up in another thread, and, though it may be (outside the edition war) more coincidence than volition, ours is a gate-kept community. You keep a hobbyist pursuit relatively isolated and basically unchanged for 25 years, folks're gonna get set in their ways. And the trickle of new folks joining it will learn those ways.... [/QUOTE]
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