Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The roots of 4e exposed?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="heretic888" data-source="post: 7463683" data-attributes="member: 60326"><p>Heh, nice. Here are the actual definitions courtesy of the Big Model wiki:</p><p></p><p>Gamism/Step On Up: <a href="http://big-model.info/w/index.php?title=Step_On_Up&redirect=no" target="_blank">http://big-model.info/w/index.php?title=Step_On_Up&redirect=no</a></p><p></p><p>Narrativism/Story Now: <a href="http://big-model.info/wiki/Story_now" target="_blank">http://big-model.info/wiki/Story_now</a></p><p></p><p>Simulationism/Right To Dream: <a href="http://big-model.info/wiki/The_Right_To_Dream" target="_blank">http://big-model.info/wiki/The_Right_To_Dream</a></p><p></p><p>Basically, in a nutshell, "Gamism" is about overcoming challenges and doing strategic play in a risk/reward style of game; "Narrativism" is about eschewing any kind of predetermined plot (think of it as the polar opposite of Railroading) and focusing play on visceral human issues like emotions, relationships, and moral dilemmas; and "Simulationism" is about exploring the features and themes of a setting or genre.</p><p></p><p>By these criteria, 4E is fairly difficult to do Gamist play compared to other versions of DnD because of its focus on encounter-based design and little in the way of long-term strategic planning (although there were modifications such as those of the Fourthcore communities that tried to focus the game more on Step On Up play); 4E can be tilted to Narrativist play with fairly little work through its reward cycles (Quest XP and Skill Challenge XP specifically), explicit allowance of player-authored content and "reskinning", and broader conflict resolution mechanics compared to other versions of DnD; and 4E is generally pretty well suited to Simulationist play with the explicit understanding that what it is attempting to "simulate" is the heroic fantasy genre, especially as represented through cinema.</p><p></p><p>Hilariously, this is the OPPOSITE of understanding of 4E in most of the internet, with the understanding that it is super-Gamist and anti-Simulationist. The irony of this is truly astounding and speaks to the general ignorance and misinformation inherent to such discussions.</p><p></p><p>Interestingly, in his most recent Phenomenology series Ron Edwards has actually dropped Right To Dream as a creative agenda (presumably because setting exploration is something that happens in ALL roleplaying games, regardless of creative agenda) and only currently recognizes Step On Up and Story Now.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, but the way the terms get bandied about has very little if anything to do with "the Forge, creative agendas, GNS, Threefold theory". <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>As one really good example of what I'm talking about, most of what gets passed off as "story-focused" or "story-oriented" play around these parts, and would probably get labelled as "narrativism" as a result, is pretty much GM-authored railroading plot --- and therefore the complete and polar opposite of Story Now play. So, for example, when the developers of 5E went around claiming it was more a more "story-focused game" or that "it was hard to find the story in 4E" they meant, respectively, that 5E is more amenable to railroaded GM plot and 4E made it more difficult to play in this way. What generally passes for "story" or "narrative" in popular RPG discussion is the GM's plot.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="heretic888, post: 7463683, member: 60326"] Heh, nice. Here are the actual definitions courtesy of the Big Model wiki: Gamism/Step On Up: [url]http://big-model.info/w/index.php?title=Step_On_Up&redirect=no[/url] Narrativism/Story Now: [url]http://big-model.info/wiki/Story_now[/url] Simulationism/Right To Dream: [url]http://big-model.info/wiki/The_Right_To_Dream[/url] Basically, in a nutshell, "Gamism" is about overcoming challenges and doing strategic play in a risk/reward style of game; "Narrativism" is about eschewing any kind of predetermined plot (think of it as the polar opposite of Railroading) and focusing play on visceral human issues like emotions, relationships, and moral dilemmas; and "Simulationism" is about exploring the features and themes of a setting or genre. By these criteria, 4E is fairly difficult to do Gamist play compared to other versions of DnD because of its focus on encounter-based design and little in the way of long-term strategic planning (although there were modifications such as those of the Fourthcore communities that tried to focus the game more on Step On Up play); 4E can be tilted to Narrativist play with fairly little work through its reward cycles (Quest XP and Skill Challenge XP specifically), explicit allowance of player-authored content and "reskinning", and broader conflict resolution mechanics compared to other versions of DnD; and 4E is generally pretty well suited to Simulationist play with the explicit understanding that what it is attempting to "simulate" is the heroic fantasy genre, especially as represented through cinema. Hilariously, this is the OPPOSITE of understanding of 4E in most of the internet, with the understanding that it is super-Gamist and anti-Simulationist. The irony of this is truly astounding and speaks to the general ignorance and misinformation inherent to such discussions. Interestingly, in his most recent Phenomenology series Ron Edwards has actually dropped Right To Dream as a creative agenda (presumably because setting exploration is something that happens in ALL roleplaying games, regardless of creative agenda) and only currently recognizes Step On Up and Story Now. Sure, but the way the terms get bandied about has very little if anything to do with "the Forge, creative agendas, GNS, Threefold theory". ;) As one really good example of what I'm talking about, most of what gets passed off as "story-focused" or "story-oriented" play around these parts, and would probably get labelled as "narrativism" as a result, is pretty much GM-authored railroading plot --- and therefore the complete and polar opposite of Story Now play. So, for example, when the developers of 5E went around claiming it was more a more "story-focused game" or that "it was hard to find the story in 4E" they meant, respectively, that 5E is more amenable to railroaded GM plot and 4E made it more difficult to play in this way. What generally passes for "story" or "narrative" in popular RPG discussion is the GM's plot. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The roots of 4e exposed?
Top