Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The unmentioned guides - Vampires Handbooks
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="MonkLover" data-source="post: 6741628" data-attributes="member: 82105"><p><strong>Originally posted by tsuyoshikentsu:</strong></p><p></p><p>Seriously, dude, what are you going to do? Talk about the two power picks, or that one should listen to the Devs when they said take Unarmored Agility?</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by vanadium322:</strong></p><p></p><p>I know spelling and grammar are not normally a priority for many people, but in a handbook-type post you might wanna make it look good.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That should be "losing" and "lose".</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by GMforPowergamers:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Thank you...</p><p></p><p>I normaly leave this sorta thing to others becuse my spelling and gramer suck, and I am at best a mid level optimizer...but I am trying here. </p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by The_Crimson_Dawn:</strong></p><p></p><p>Also why not an 8 in con. Get auspicious birth or the like and con does nearly nothing for you.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by The_Warren:</strong></p><p></p><p>I'm actually happy that vampires are getting a real handbook. i imagine it will be more of just ratings based on the best feats, multiclass options, hybrid options, and items, but I'm sure there is at least some synergy somewhere.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by RuinsFate:</strong></p><p></p><p>Your chosen shades of green and gold are very bright, and hard to read, I'd recommend changing them to something darker.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by curiousdragon:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes agreed with that.</p><p></p><p>I'm also looking forward to this...mostly for feats/PPs/EDs. Powers aren't everything! </p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by GMforPowergamers:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I changed them...</p><p></p><p>I tried to get races up, and stats. I lmost just to be funny made all the powers gold...but decided that there were enough vampire jokes. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Damon_Tor:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wut.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by GMforPowergamers:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>ok, do you dissagree with the rateing or me not writeing out why the rateing is there?</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Lesp:</strong></p><p></p><p>Those two things in concert imply that playing a Vryloka is mandatory if you're trying to put together a generally optimized vampire, which is just untrue. Handbooks essentially never make races gold, because there's no race that's so utterly superior at any particular class that you'd be foolish to not take the race. Gold is generally reserved for feats (or rarely, skills) that either are necessary to make the class work or to make the math keep up and for powers that are so thoroghly dominating at their level that passing them up is a siginificant hit to overall character effectiveness. (Twin Strike, for example). While individual handbook writers are free to use Gold to mean whatever they like, if you're going to use the boilerplate "this is what gold means" definition right in your handbook, Vryloka are not Gold at all. (On top of the oddness of using Gold for a race to begin with, Vryloka, with their relative dearth of support, probably aren't even the best option.)</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Fardiz:</strong></p><p></p><p>Is a shade vampire really sky blue? With only one surge, you better hope that you never run into wights...</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by FLAvatar:</strong></p><p></p><p>Well, the vast majority of wights just make you lose a healing surge with no provisions for additional penalties if you have none left. It could be argued that shade vampires are among the classes with the least to lose by fighting wights <img src="http://community.wizards.com/tools/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/img/smiley-wink.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Mand12:</strong></p><p></p><p>I really don't get why people are so hung up about the starting surges or lack thereof. It's really not a big deal. I mean, how many surges are you really going to need in any given encounter anyway? Two, at <em>most</em>, unless your entire party is doing something very wrong. And given surge generation abilities...yeah. Even a one-surge Shade isn't exactly going to be easy to pick off.</p><p></p><p>I mean, compare it to a rogue. A typical rogue has 6 surges, with the occasional exception having 7. A vampire has 2, but at level 7 he's gaining two per encounter (unless you don't record two hits in an encounter, which means you've got bigger problems...). Even on a short adventuring workday of 2 encounters it's even with a rogue. At typical load levels (4) the vampire is way ahead, even if he's a Shade.</p><p></p><p>Now, this doesn't do much to make the Vampire not completely terrible, as durable-but-completely-nonthreatening is the precise way to get monsters to ignore you and murder your friends, but I do think it's worth being accurate in describing what few advantages a vampire has.</p><p></p><p>That said, the best Vampire is a normal class with the Vampirism and PowerSource Vampire feats, which is just downright sad.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by The_Warren:</strong></p><p></p><p>Skill challenges that makes the pc lose surges could potentially drop a shade vampire with some bad rolls (assuming that after the pc loses it's surge it is now losing 1/4 life for each additonal failure).</p><p></p><p>Also, having more than one surge for a vampire is a great thing, because of powers like feral assault that let you nova if you expend a surge. Especially if for a 1st round mini nova the vampire uses vampire slam + blood drinker, action points to use feral assault and expends a surge to do 2d8 extra to take a monster below bloodied. Hurray. Now team monster focus fires on the vampire who gets dropped, healed by the leader, and is now hiding in the corner for the rest of the encounter until he can regen to a point where a hit from a brute wouldn't drop him again. Boo.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by estlor:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's because the 4e rules handle that.</p><p></p><p>PC who loses a healing surge with none left = take bloodied value in damage. Or, in other words, "Ouch!"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Mand12:</strong></p><p></p><p>Takes healing surge value in damage, not bloodied value.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by kilpatds:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Cite? I've been looking for it, but unable to find it. All I can find are specific situations that specify the result you just mentioned.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by talavar:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or you could play a revenant vampire and laugh as you stay standing up at 0 HP, roll vs daze thanks to superior will and keep fighting. Vampires aren't very feat strapped making this one of the best options IMO.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by ShadowWhispers:</strong></p><p></p><p>I am disappointed that this handbook is called "I Just Don't Want to Suck" rather than "I Don't <em>Just</em> Want to Suck."</p><p></p><p>A perfectly good pun opportunity missed! </p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by mellored:</strong></p><p></p><p> Vryloka shouldn't be gold. Yes, it's +Dex/Cha, but I don't see anything that really put's it over the other Dex/Cha races, execpt perhaps living dead, but that seems party/campaign specific.</p><p></p><p>If anything is gold, it's revenant. They have the stats, can be neigh-indestuctable (though be wary of the "sun-light turn to dust" thing), and take other race feats.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by FLAvatar:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>that was the joke actually =)</p><p></p><p>quoted very loosely from a previous thread(x):</p><p></p><p>Though it is frequently purported to exist, there is no default rule on what happens if you get a surge drained when you have none left. It's left up to the individual draining power/event to define the result.</p><p></p><p>It varies between nothing at all, lose a surge's worth of HP, lose your level in HP, lose your bloodied value in HP, or lose some other amount of HP (a lacedon, for instance, will cost you 10) </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by GMforPowergamers:</strong></p><p></p><p>When I looked at all the races looked like it was a no brainer that Vryloka had some utlities better then vamp, and had the perfect stats (so do others) and an encounter power that is useful. I will tone that down to sky blue, and maybe down grade the shade, but in SHade I see that loseing a surge not to matter as much.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by The_Warren:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My post was in regards to shade vampires and only having 1 surge. Revenants are always the best survival characters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by VilliansVision:</strong></p><p></p><p>Please continue with this handbook, I am pleased to see someone taking a serious look at the Vampire. Some folks may have a desire to play one, or be in a campaign that a vampire would work really well with . Having a handbook would be handy for those folks. </p><p></p><p> </p><p><strong>Originally posted by Litigation:</strong></p><p></p><p>Yeah, sorry, Shades are flat-out <span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>red</strong></span>. For everything. Even double-stat synergy for a class doesn't stop them from being <span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>red</strong></span> for said class.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Mand12:</strong></p><p></p><p>That's a bit of an exaggeration. Vampires I'd say they're at least purple, if not black. The upsides aren't spectacular aside from the stats, but the downsides are nowhere <em>near</em> as bad on a Vampire.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by talavar:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just pointing out that even with all the feats/equipment required to make a vamp unkillable it doesn't really take anything away from them.</p><p></p><p>If you can't make a striker burst down elites you may as well make it impossible to kill. </p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Litigation:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>One surge. Per day. No, that's bad any way you slice it. Then add the ridiculous Stealth training and the worst racial utility power ever made. Shade Vampires suck worse than even most others.</p><p></p><p>Other race notes:</p><p></p><p>Eladrin should be at least blue. If you're going to slate the Eladrin for wasted racial features then you definitely have to do the same for the Shade, which is just a worse race. Plus the Neverwinter book offers alternates for the "wasted" Eladrin features. Besides, Fey Step ALONE > the entire Shade package.</p><p></p><p>Half-Orc black? lolwut? DEX bonus on top of awesome racial Striker support, every bit of which you'll need to redeem this class? Half-Orc should be sky blue, period.</p><p></p><p>Githzerai is easily dark blue, if not better. That's too strong of a racial package there.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by mellored:</strong></p><p></p><p>Shades....</p><p></p><p>They loose half a feat. Durable is rated purple in most handbooks. It's a loss, but a small one.</p><p>Training in stealth is good. Replaces the half of a purple feat that was lost and a little more. Call it equal to resist radiant 5/10/15.</p><p>Darkvision: WOO!. Now we've got solid features. Total it up to average.</p><p>Now we need an racial power... mmm... THIS is where it fails.</p><p></p><p>So basicly it's a race without a racial power. Still, it has the stats for vampire, so black.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Litigation:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Uh, no. A penalty to surges below base is NOT the same as deciding not to take Durable. Not. Even. Close. To claim so is completely disingenuous.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What? When is Stealth training EVER equivalent to damage resistance?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Darkvision is a neat bonus. Nothing more.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. The Shade's disadvantages are so severe that nothing, not even double-stat synergy, prevents it from being the bottom of the barrel. There's a reason it's rated red in all my guides, even for the classes for which it has appropriate stats.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by Mand12:</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is why you add some nice condiments of "+1/2/3 healing surges per encounter" and make a wonderful meal out of it. </p><p></p><p>Seriously, your assessment of how crippled a 1-surge-per-day character would be is based on a <strong>non</strong>-surge-generating character. Vampires work differently. 1 surge is not all that much worse than 2 surges, since <em>neither</em> of those surges may end up actually being used based on how the vampire works.</p><p></p><p>It'd be tough before level 7, when you only have +1 surge per encounter, but that's not enough to make the race red, especially when non-Shade vamps still have that problem even starting at 2 surges.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This statement leads me to believe you're not even looking at it in the context of the Vampire, or at least not doing so objectively.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by lord_rock:</strong></p><p></p><p>Great job. This was actually supposed to be a project of mine awhile ago but never got the time. I'll add what I can. The Reverse multiclass options and hybrid options are likely still the best ways to optimize so please focus on those as they get further testing. </p><p></p><p>We'll also see a lot of dragon support for this class... Get ready for that. </p><p></p><p>I second Half-Orc as a sky blue race, eladrin too, and the shade is still Red.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by mellored:</strong></p><p></p><p>Well... i guess it depends on how you define red...</p><p></p><p>Red: There is a strictly better option.</p><p>or</p><p>Red: The worst possible option.</p><p></p><p>Shades could be considered for the first one. As there's is another Dex/Cha race with darkvision and a racial power that's let's you hide...</p><p></p><p>However, if you go by the second one, then shade's are better vampires then dwarves.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MonkLover, post: 6741628, member: 82105"] [b]Originally posted by tsuyoshikentsu:[/b] Seriously, dude, what are you going to do? Talk about the two power picks, or that one should listen to the Devs when they said take Unarmored Agility? [b]Originally posted by vanadium322:[/b] I know spelling and grammar are not normally a priority for many people, but in a handbook-type post you might wanna make it look good. That should be "losing" and "lose". [b]Originally posted by GMforPowergamers:[/b] Thank you... I normaly leave this sorta thing to others becuse my spelling and gramer suck, and I am at best a mid level optimizer...but I am trying here. [b]Originally posted by The_Crimson_Dawn:[/b] Also why not an 8 in con. Get auspicious birth or the like and con does nearly nothing for you. [b]Originally posted by The_Warren:[/b] I'm actually happy that vampires are getting a real handbook. i imagine it will be more of just ratings based on the best feats, multiclass options, hybrid options, and items, but I'm sure there is at least some synergy somewhere. [b]Originally posted by RuinsFate:[/b] Your chosen shades of green and gold are very bright, and hard to read, I'd recommend changing them to something darker. [b]Originally posted by curiousdragon:[/b] Yes agreed with that. I'm also looking forward to this...mostly for feats/PPs/EDs. Powers aren't everything! [b]Originally posted by GMforPowergamers:[/b] I changed them... I tried to get races up, and stats. I lmost just to be funny made all the powers gold...but decided that there were enough vampire jokes. [b]Originally posted by Damon_Tor:[/b] Wut. [b]Originally posted by GMforPowergamers:[/b] ok, do you dissagree with the rateing or me not writeing out why the rateing is there? [b]Originally posted by Lesp:[/b] Those two things in concert imply that playing a Vryloka is mandatory if you're trying to put together a generally optimized vampire, which is just untrue. Handbooks essentially never make races gold, because there's no race that's so utterly superior at any particular class that you'd be foolish to not take the race. Gold is generally reserved for feats (or rarely, skills) that either are necessary to make the class work or to make the math keep up and for powers that are so thoroghly dominating at their level that passing them up is a siginificant hit to overall character effectiveness. (Twin Strike, for example). While individual handbook writers are free to use Gold to mean whatever they like, if you're going to use the boilerplate "this is what gold means" definition right in your handbook, Vryloka are not Gold at all. (On top of the oddness of using Gold for a race to begin with, Vryloka, with their relative dearth of support, probably aren't even the best option.) [b]Originally posted by Fardiz:[/b] Is a shade vampire really sky blue? With only one surge, you better hope that you never run into wights... [b]Originally posted by FLAvatar:[/b] Well, the vast majority of wights just make you lose a healing surge with no provisions for additional penalties if you have none left. It could be argued that shade vampires are among the classes with the least to lose by fighting wights [IMG]http://community.wizards.com/tools/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/img/smiley-wink.gif[/IMG] [b]Originally posted by Mand12:[/b] I really don't get why people are so hung up about the starting surges or lack thereof. It's really not a big deal. I mean, how many surges are you really going to need in any given encounter anyway? Two, at [i]most[/i], unless your entire party is doing something very wrong. And given surge generation abilities...yeah. Even a one-surge Shade isn't exactly going to be easy to pick off. I mean, compare it to a rogue. A typical rogue has 6 surges, with the occasional exception having 7. A vampire has 2, but at level 7 he's gaining two per encounter (unless you don't record two hits in an encounter, which means you've got bigger problems...). Even on a short adventuring workday of 2 encounters it's even with a rogue. At typical load levels (4) the vampire is way ahead, even if he's a Shade. Now, this doesn't do much to make the Vampire not completely terrible, as durable-but-completely-nonthreatening is the precise way to get monsters to ignore you and murder your friends, but I do think it's worth being accurate in describing what few advantages a vampire has. That said, the best Vampire is a normal class with the Vampirism and PowerSource Vampire feats, which is just downright sad. [b]Originally posted by The_Warren:[/b] Skill challenges that makes the pc lose surges could potentially drop a shade vampire with some bad rolls (assuming that after the pc loses it's surge it is now losing 1/4 life for each additonal failure). Also, having more than one surge for a vampire is a great thing, because of powers like feral assault that let you nova if you expend a surge. Especially if for a 1st round mini nova the vampire uses vampire slam + blood drinker, action points to use feral assault and expends a surge to do 2d8 extra to take a monster below bloodied. Hurray. Now team monster focus fires on the vampire who gets dropped, healed by the leader, and is now hiding in the corner for the rest of the encounter until he can regen to a point where a hit from a brute wouldn't drop him again. Boo. [b]Originally posted by estlor:[/b] That's because the 4e rules handle that. PC who loses a healing surge with none left = take bloodied value in damage. Or, in other words, "Ouch!" [b]Originally posted by Mand12:[/b] Takes healing surge value in damage, not bloodied value. [b]Originally posted by kilpatds:[/b] Cite? I've been looking for it, but unable to find it. All I can find are specific situations that specify the result you just mentioned. [b]Originally posted by talavar:[/b] Or you could play a revenant vampire and laugh as you stay standing up at 0 HP, roll vs daze thanks to superior will and keep fighting. Vampires aren't very feat strapped making this one of the best options IMO. [b]Originally posted by ShadowWhispers:[/b] I am disappointed that this handbook is called "I Just Don't Want to Suck" rather than "I Don't [i]Just[/i] Want to Suck." A perfectly good pun opportunity missed! [b]Originally posted by mellored:[/b] Vryloka shouldn't be gold. Yes, it's +Dex/Cha, but I don't see anything that really put's it over the other Dex/Cha races, execpt perhaps living dead, but that seems party/campaign specific. If anything is gold, it's revenant. They have the stats, can be neigh-indestuctable (though be wary of the "sun-light turn to dust" thing), and take other race feats. [b]Originally posted by FLAvatar:[/b] that was the joke actually =) quoted very loosely from a previous thread(x): Though it is frequently purported to exist, there is no default rule on what happens if you get a surge drained when you have none left. It's left up to the individual draining power/event to define the result. It varies between nothing at all, lose a surge's worth of HP, lose your level in HP, lose your bloodied value in HP, or lose some other amount of HP (a lacedon, for instance, will cost you 10) [b]Originally posted by GMforPowergamers:[/b] When I looked at all the races looked like it was a no brainer that Vryloka had some utlities better then vamp, and had the perfect stats (so do others) and an encounter power that is useful. I will tone that down to sky blue, and maybe down grade the shade, but in SHade I see that loseing a surge not to matter as much. [b]Originally posted by The_Warren:[/b] My post was in regards to shade vampires and only having 1 surge. Revenants are always the best survival characters. [b]Originally posted by VilliansVision:[/b] Please continue with this handbook, I am pleased to see someone taking a serious look at the Vampire. Some folks may have a desire to play one, or be in a campaign that a vampire would work really well with . Having a handbook would be handy for those folks. [b]Originally posted by Litigation:[/b] Yeah, sorry, Shades are flat-out [COLOR=#ff0000][b]red[/b][/COLOR]. For everything. Even double-stat synergy for a class doesn't stop them from being [COLOR=#ff0000][b]red[/b][/COLOR] for said class. [b]Originally posted by Mand12:[/b] That's a bit of an exaggeration. Vampires I'd say they're at least purple, if not black. The upsides aren't spectacular aside from the stats, but the downsides are nowhere [i]near[/i] as bad on a Vampire. [b]Originally posted by talavar:[/b] Just pointing out that even with all the feats/equipment required to make a vamp unkillable it doesn't really take anything away from them. If you can't make a striker burst down elites you may as well make it impossible to kill. [b]Originally posted by Litigation:[/b] One surge. Per day. No, that's bad any way you slice it. Then add the ridiculous Stealth training and the worst racial utility power ever made. Shade Vampires suck worse than even most others. Other race notes: Eladrin should be at least blue. If you're going to slate the Eladrin for wasted racial features then you definitely have to do the same for the Shade, which is just a worse race. Plus the Neverwinter book offers alternates for the "wasted" Eladrin features. Besides, Fey Step ALONE > the entire Shade package. Half-Orc black? lolwut? DEX bonus on top of awesome racial Striker support, every bit of which you'll need to redeem this class? Half-Orc should be sky blue, period. Githzerai is easily dark blue, if not better. That's too strong of a racial package there. [b]Originally posted by mellored:[/b] Shades.... They loose half a feat. Durable is rated purple in most handbooks. It's a loss, but a small one. Training in stealth is good. Replaces the half of a purple feat that was lost and a little more. Call it equal to resist radiant 5/10/15. Darkvision: WOO!. Now we've got solid features. Total it up to average. Now we need an racial power... mmm... THIS is where it fails. So basicly it's a race without a racial power. Still, it has the stats for vampire, so black. [b]Originally posted by Litigation:[/b] Uh, no. A penalty to surges below base is NOT the same as deciding not to take Durable. Not. Even. Close. To claim so is completely disingenuous. What? When is Stealth training EVER equivalent to damage resistance? Darkvision is a neat bonus. Nothing more. I disagree. The Shade's disadvantages are so severe that nothing, not even double-stat synergy, prevents it from being the bottom of the barrel. There's a reason it's rated red in all my guides, even for the classes for which it has appropriate stats. [b]Originally posted by Mand12:[/b] Which is why you add some nice condiments of "+1/2/3 healing surges per encounter" and make a wonderful meal out of it. Seriously, your assessment of how crippled a 1-surge-per-day character would be is based on a [b]non[/b]-surge-generating character. Vampires work differently. 1 surge is not all that much worse than 2 surges, since [i]neither[/i] of those surges may end up actually being used based on how the vampire works. It'd be tough before level 7, when you only have +1 surge per encounter, but that's not enough to make the race red, especially when non-Shade vamps still have that problem even starting at 2 surges. This statement leads me to believe you're not even looking at it in the context of the Vampire, or at least not doing so objectively. [b]Originally posted by lord_rock:[/b] Great job. This was actually supposed to be a project of mine awhile ago but never got the time. I'll add what I can. The Reverse multiclass options and hybrid options are likely still the best ways to optimize so please focus on those as they get further testing. We'll also see a lot of dragon support for this class... Get ready for that. I second Half-Orc as a sky blue race, eladrin too, and the shade is still Red. [b]Originally posted by mellored:[/b] Well... i guess it depends on how you define red... Red: There is a strictly better option. or Red: The worst possible option. Shades could be considered for the first one. As there's is another Dex/Cha race with darkvision and a racial power that's let's you hide... However, if you go by the second one, then shade's are better vampires then dwarves. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The unmentioned guides - Vampires Handbooks
Top