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The Vehicle Construction System: Level based

BlackJaw

First Post
Pricing...
Ok, lets remember that while we can define spicific components in terms of Tech Levels easily right now, and a similar system could be used to define the amount of magic in a component or hit die, we (well I) stripped out the whole Cosmos system, so the "inherent tech or magic level" of an area or cosmos is not something that should be built into the pricing system. (note: a cosmos system as a sort of meta-universe setting as an add-on is a cool idea but not one that was worth putting into these "core" rules as it is an implied setting or setting frame work). What we do need to define is a Cultural Tech Level. This represents the level of technology a given culture can easily make. This could very widely. Steam-punk Gnomes and goblins might be CTL 4, but the Lizard folk 3 weeks away in the jungles and swamps are CTL 0. This has nothing to do with any limits on possible technology for an area/cosmos/setting. It's just what they currently know how to do. It has no implications as to what is possible, if they will develope better tech, etc.

Anyways: pricing things is fairly simple. Every component has a "level." Some devices, like engines, allow you to set the level depending on your needs as the builder, other components have a set level in their description, such as a Catapult is always level 2. Once you know the Level of a device, you can then determine if it's a technological device or a magical device.

A magical device is priced like it made around a spell of hte same level. wounderous item type pricing. Regardless of your culture, magic always costs the same.

technological devices are not so straight forward. They cost a flat rate if the Level matches your Cultural Tech Level. if its lower (1 level or more) it costs half that amount. if it 1 higher in level then your CTL, then costs double. If it is more then 1 higher in level then your CTL, it is not possible to make it with even the cutting edge tech of your culture.

note that the pricing for CTL is based of the culture your in at the moment. If you traveled back in time to the stone age, you'd be at CTL 0 despite your knowledge of computers, because the culture your in would still only have fire and wheels. getting a fusion rocket replaced by steam-punk gnomes isn't going to help you, but a high level wizard might be able to get a decent replacement.
 

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Wyvern

Explorer
BlackJaw said:
Again: I don't want to recalculate speed (something tied to size and other things) depending on the situation. It should be simpler then that.
It doesn't have to be that complicated really. Let's say you have x number of Engine levels providing y speed points. You divide this total by your hit dice to find maximum speed. This is all worked out during vehicle construction. Then for each Engine level you have, you need 1 Power unit. So if you only divert half this number of Power units to the engines, you can only move at half your maximum speed. Or something like that. How maneuverability would fit in, I don't know yet.


Wroks ok by me but we'll need to add a little refrence to the list (sample tech for each level):
I already did that a long time ago. You can find it at http://www.msu.edu/~reesmatt/Cosmo5.rtf

One thought I had the other day is that maybe we should change the scale to 1-10 so that 0 really does represent NO tech/magic. (So the maximum spell level you can cast is equal to the magic level - 1.) If we did that, we wouldn't have to add 1 to the tech/magic level when calculating movement points etc..

If you're planning to ignore magic/tech potential and just use magic/tech achievement levels, then just change the formula I suggested earlier so that magic engines/power/fuel etc. use the sqaure of the magic achievement level, just like technological components use the sqaure of the tech achievement level.


A magical device is priced like it made around a spell of hte same level. wounderous item type pricing. Regardless of your culture, magic always costs the same.
The reason I specifically avoided that was because it requires you to decide what spell a particular type of component uses, which in turn requires you to define how that component works. No room for variation. I don't mind that with special components that have a specialized purpose, but I thought for the general component types (engines, power, weapons, etc.) you wanted to leave it open-ended. Also, if you use the regular rules for pricing wondrous items, then you have to factor in caster level as well. Also, using the magic achievement level instead of the spell level allows you to reflect that "this culture is more magically advanced than that one, so it can build magic devices more cheaply."

I like your idea on how to handle the pricing of tech items, though.

Wyvern
 

BlackJaw

First Post
Wyvern said:
One thought I had the other day is that maybe we should change the scale to 1-10 so that 0 really does represent NO tech/magic. (So the maximum spell level you can cast is equal to the magic level - 1.) If we did that, we wouldn't have to add 1 to the tech/magic level when calculating movement points etc..
1-10 with 0 being NONE (0-10 in that case) is interesting (we live, in theory, in a ML 0 world after all) but I like 0-9 because it is the same as magic spells. Having tech match magic is fine too (better then tech being 0-10 and magic 0-9) so I'd say keep 0-9.

Wyvern said:
If you're planning to ignore magic/tech potential and just use magic/tech achievement levels, then just change the formula I suggested earlier so that magic engines/power/fuel etc. use the sqaure of the magic achievement level, just like technological components use the sqaure of the tech achievement level.
If we are talking about how much say "engine/speed/manuvering points" you get out of an item, I fully intend to use the standard (Level +1 ) squared rule you had. Magic and Tech of the same level are equal effective (just one doens't work in anti-magic, and the other is priced depending on the culture's tech.

Wyvern said:
(about using wonderous item pricing)...
The reason I specifically avoided that was because it requires you to decide what spell a particular type of component uses, which in turn requires you to define how that component works. No room for variation. I don't mind that with special components that have a specialized purpose, but I thought for the general component types (engines, power, weapons, etc.) you wanted to leave it open-ended. Also, if you use the regular rules for pricing wondrous items, then you have to factor in caster level as well. Also, using the magic achievement level instead of the spell level allows you to reflect that "this culture is more magically advanced than that one, so it can build magic devices more cheaply."
oooh yah, caster level and trying ot figure out spell connections... ach.
maybe something simplier like 1,000 x ML = price. Thousands of gp for a single HD of component is expensive... but this is a starting place.

Wyvern said:
I like your idea on how to handle the pricing of tech items, though.

Well I like the idea, but I won't know if it works well untill after we have a functioning system to toy with (and we are close now... far closer then we have been before). Because price is a key balancing factor in D&D it's important that we get prices acurate.

Does this all sound ok so far? If so I'll try a "Dry Run" at making some vehicles under the current proposed system and post the results here for review.
 


BlackJaw

First Post
Wyvern said:
Go for it! :)

Wyvern

I went for it and it fought back. Still working a bit on and off, but some stuff came up. This is Birthday time for my friends, my familiy, and myself, and I've been putting extra effort into my home D&D game... pluss I'm trying to get promoted at work.

Still this project has always been in my mind and I am taking a few days here and there for the next couple of weeks (thanks to having pre-planned for my home D&D games) to try and get more done on it.

So back to testing some vehicle designs to see if they work.

Things I've learned (added via edit message function):
1) A Zeppling/etc when added to a craft should increase it's size by one, and increase it's HD for Speed & Manuvering calculations by 50% instead of doubling. Doubling is too much without spending a fortune and using massive engines. 50% lets industrial tech increase speed -or- manuvering 1 step without using massive, high tech, or expensive pure magic engines. Using more expensive engines (higher tech) or magic ones, you can do more. seems resonable to me and it doesn't effect non-blimp craft calculations.
 
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