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Thing I thought 4e did better: Monsters
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7006631" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>But pointing out that Gygax was extremely clear that if you want a game to be a physics simulator then D&D doesn't do that is IMO absolutely valid. And pointing out that if you want a game to describe everything within the world then this means that the interactions with the game world can be no richer than the system allows for and is thus a bad consequence is IMO accurate.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And?</p><p></p><p>4e works with the mechanics being centred round the PCs. If something happens offstage you wouldn't play it out in as much detail anyway - at least not unless you wanted to sit at home rolling for 200 peasants vs a small dragon between sessions. It also doesn't have rules for very unlikely events; that's why we have a DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If it's fighting its instincts it isn't as effective. Of course it can flee - but it's fighting its instincts to do so. Try writing with your left hand - it's not as effective as your right.</p><p></p><p>And interestingly if the black dragon wants to flee with its instincts then its best approach is to see something and take its aggression out on that. I have no problem with this.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope. Triggers are opportunities; you don't have to actually pull the trigger. (4e monsters don't get things like feats of course - you just write down what the feat does).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely. And this is one of the <em>fundamental</em> misunderstandings that people have about 4e. You do not simply scale up a bear to make it a fight for a high level party - unless it's a Legendary Giant Bear that sprays a swarm of bees out of its mouth or whatever.</p><p></p><p>However.</p><p></p><p>The 4e mechanics hold <em>where the PCs interact with the gameworld</em>. Because that's where you use mechanics not fiat anyway. And how the gameworld looks to the PCs changes over time. In 2e a single ogre is probably a match for an entire first level party. On the other hand a twelfth level party fresh from the Demonweb Pits (after recovering) can probably wade into an ogre encampment and start slaughtering them without much trouble at all.</p><p></p><p>In 2e you're likely to end up with a lot of slapped, scorched, and singed ogres if you do this, complete with tracking the hit points of each one of those brutes. And ending up with a lot in single figures.</p><p></p><p>In 4e (once we put the 4e PCs level somewhere into the late teens), because 4e's mechanics are focussed on what is onscreen, the ogres are still all 8' tall hulking brutes with bad breath and big bone clubs. And their approximate XP is the same. But the way they interact with the PCs is very different - so instead of being 9th level Brutes you stat them up as 17th level Minions. This means that they have approximately the same overall threat profile - but are the level of bookkeeping that you would expect and relate to the living legends that the PCs are (unless one's a revenant, warforged, or vampire) as utterly outmatched.</p><p></p><p>You can see this effect in TV shows; a good example would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer. At the start of Season 1 if Xander and Willow are together against one vampire this is a serious fight and they are trying to get away. The vampire is seriously overmatching them. By Season 7? A season 7 nameless vampire is still as physically strong as in season 1. They are still generally as skilled. And they are going to go down like chumps, with even Xander barely breaking a sweat one on one. So you use the Level 13 minion version of their statblock rather than the Level 1 Elite or the Level 5 Standard. All are valid ways of representing the same vampire.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I don't believe this is possible. The fiction and the mechanics are in a necessary feedback loop. What normally works? How do things compare? These are mechanical questions that impact the fiction.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is going to lead on to a textbook rant where not all the design team understood 4e. (If they did we would never have had <em>Keep on the Shadowfell</em> which is not only a terrible adventure in general but would struggle to have been designed to better make the initial 4e experience miserable).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This makes as much sense to me not being step 1 as it does to you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And there is a <em>lot</em> wrong with the presentation of the opening three 4e books. I'm not remotely trying to dispute that. (For that matter the design of two of the eight classes in the PHB is distinctly flawed). The entire thing was put together in 10 months after they threw out Orcus 14 months into the 24 month development period and still launched to time. This was a spectacular mistake and it needed at least six months and probably a year's more playtesting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Both of which the 4e MM actually does have. Those suggested groups to use each monster in <em>are</em> a mix of ecology, social organisation, and number appearing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You and some of the design team, alas.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The picture and the fact that all aboleths are surrounded by a mucus haze.</p><p></p><p>OK. Let's look at Aboleths in the 3.5 SRD.</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian found primarily in subterranean lakes and rivers. An aboleth has a pink belly. Four pulsating blueblack orifices line the bottom of its body and secrete gray slime that smells like rancid grease. It uses its tail for propulsion in the water and drags itself along with its tentacles on land. An aboleth weighs about 6,500 pounds.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Aboleths speak their own language, as well as Undercommon and Aquan.</p><p></p><p>Are you telling me that that's any more useful?</p><p></p><p>Or in the 2e Monster Manual?</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The aboleth is a loathsome amphibious creature that lives in subterranean caves and lakes. It despises most land-dwelling creatures and seeks to enslave intelligent surface beings. It is as cruel as it is intelligent.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">An aboleth resembles a plump fish, 20 feet in length from its bulbous head to its fluke-like tail. Its body is blue-green with gray splotches, and its pink-tan underbelly conceals a toothless, rubbery mouth. Three slit-like eyes, purple-red in color and protected by bony ridges, are set one atop the other in the front of its head. Four pulsating blue-black orifices line the bottom of its body and secrete gray slime that smells like rancid grease. Four leathery tentacles, each 10 feet in length, grow from its head. An aboleth uses its tail to propel itself through the water and its tentacles to drag itself along dry land.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">...</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Habitat/Society: An aboleth brood consists of a parent and one to three offspring. Though the offspring are as large and as strong as the parent, they defer to the parent in all matters and obey it implicitly. Aboleth have both male and female sexual organs. A mature aboleth reproduces once every five years by concealing itself in a cavern or other remote area, then laying a single egg and covering it in slime. The parent aboleth guards the egg while the embryo grows and develops, a process that takes about five years. A newborn aboleth takes about 10 years to mature.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The aboleth spends most of its time searching for slaves, preferably human ones. It is rumored that the aboleth use their slaves to construct huge underwater cities, though none have ever been found. The aboleth are rumored to know ancient, horrible secrets that predate the existence of man, but these rumors are also unsubstantiated. There is no doubt that aboleth retain a staggering amount of knowledge. An offspring acquires all of its parent’s knowledge at birth, and a mature aboleth acquires the knowledge of any intelligent being it consumes.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">An aboleth’s treasure consists of items taken from its slaves. The items are buried in caverns under a layer of slime resembling gray mud, recognizable by the distinctive rancid grease odor.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>Not seeing that as much better.</p><p></p><p>And that's before you look at the rest of the fluff in 4e: The ritual to turn humanoids into Aboleth Servitors. The organisation of Aboleth raiding parties. The link to the Kuo-Toa with their great and dark temples. The link to the Far Realm which automatically makes the Aboleth into lovecraftian horrors despite living in the Underdark.</p><p></p><p>To me the 4e Monster Manual fluff, other than on the single point of its lack of scents, leaves the 2e laundry list of lifecycles in the dust. I'm much more interested in creatures from the Far Realm with rituals to turn humanoids into semi-mindless servitors than I am into egg laying creatures that spend five years sitting on their eggs. (And 2e leaves 3.5 behind).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 7006631, member: 87792"] But pointing out that Gygax was extremely clear that if you want a game to be a physics simulator then D&D doesn't do that is IMO absolutely valid. And pointing out that if you want a game to describe everything within the world then this means that the interactions with the game world can be no richer than the system allows for and is thus a bad consequence is IMO accurate. And? 4e works with the mechanics being centred round the PCs. If something happens offstage you wouldn't play it out in as much detail anyway - at least not unless you wanted to sit at home rolling for 200 peasants vs a small dragon between sessions. It also doesn't have rules for very unlikely events; that's why we have a DM. If it's fighting its instincts it isn't as effective. Of course it can flee - but it's fighting its instincts to do so. Try writing with your left hand - it's not as effective as your right. And interestingly if the black dragon wants to flee with its instincts then its best approach is to see something and take its aggression out on that. I have no problem with this. Nope. Triggers are opportunities; you don't have to actually pull the trigger. (4e monsters don't get things like feats of course - you just write down what the feat does). Absolutely. And this is one of the [I]fundamental[/I] misunderstandings that people have about 4e. You do not simply scale up a bear to make it a fight for a high level party - unless it's a Legendary Giant Bear that sprays a swarm of bees out of its mouth or whatever. However. The 4e mechanics hold [I]where the PCs interact with the gameworld[/I]. Because that's where you use mechanics not fiat anyway. And how the gameworld looks to the PCs changes over time. In 2e a single ogre is probably a match for an entire first level party. On the other hand a twelfth level party fresh from the Demonweb Pits (after recovering) can probably wade into an ogre encampment and start slaughtering them without much trouble at all. In 2e you're likely to end up with a lot of slapped, scorched, and singed ogres if you do this, complete with tracking the hit points of each one of those brutes. And ending up with a lot in single figures. In 4e (once we put the 4e PCs level somewhere into the late teens), because 4e's mechanics are focussed on what is onscreen, the ogres are still all 8' tall hulking brutes with bad breath and big bone clubs. And their approximate XP is the same. But the way they interact with the PCs is very different - so instead of being 9th level Brutes you stat them up as 17th level Minions. This means that they have approximately the same overall threat profile - but are the level of bookkeeping that you would expect and relate to the living legends that the PCs are (unless one's a revenant, warforged, or vampire) as utterly outmatched. You can see this effect in TV shows; a good example would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer. At the start of Season 1 if Xander and Willow are together against one vampire this is a serious fight and they are trying to get away. The vampire is seriously overmatching them. By Season 7? A season 7 nameless vampire is still as physically strong as in season 1. They are still generally as skilled. And they are going to go down like chumps, with even Xander barely breaking a sweat one on one. So you use the Level 13 minion version of their statblock rather than the Level 1 Elite or the Level 5 Standard. All are valid ways of representing the same vampire. And I don't believe this is possible. The fiction and the mechanics are in a necessary feedback loop. What normally works? How do things compare? These are mechanical questions that impact the fiction. This is going to lead on to a textbook rant where not all the design team understood 4e. (If they did we would never have had [I]Keep on the Shadowfell[/I] which is not only a terrible adventure in general but would struggle to have been designed to better make the initial 4e experience miserable). This makes as much sense to me not being step 1 as it does to you. And there is a [I]lot[/I] wrong with the presentation of the opening three 4e books. I'm not remotely trying to dispute that. (For that matter the design of two of the eight classes in the PHB is distinctly flawed). The entire thing was put together in 10 months after they threw out Orcus 14 months into the 24 month development period and still launched to time. This was a spectacular mistake and it needed at least six months and probably a year's more playtesting. Both of which the 4e MM actually does have. Those suggested groups to use each monster in [I]are[/I] a mix of ecology, social organisation, and number appearing. You and some of the design team, alas. The picture and the fact that all aboleths are surrounded by a mucus haze. OK. Let's look at Aboleths in the 3.5 SRD. [INDENT]The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian found primarily in subterranean lakes and rivers. An aboleth has a pink belly. Four pulsating blueblack orifices line the bottom of its body and secrete gray slime that smells like rancid grease. It uses its tail for propulsion in the water and drags itself along with its tentacles on land. An aboleth weighs about 6,500 pounds. Aboleths speak their own language, as well as Undercommon and Aquan.[/INDENT] Are you telling me that that's any more useful? Or in the 2e Monster Manual? [INDENT]The aboleth is a loathsome amphibious creature that lives in subterranean caves and lakes. It despises most land-dwelling creatures and seeks to enslave intelligent surface beings. It is as cruel as it is intelligent. An aboleth resembles a plump fish, 20 feet in length from its bulbous head to its fluke-like tail. Its body is blue-green with gray splotches, and its pink-tan underbelly conceals a toothless, rubbery mouth. Three slit-like eyes, purple-red in color and protected by bony ridges, are set one atop the other in the front of its head. Four pulsating blue-black orifices line the bottom of its body and secrete gray slime that smells like rancid grease. Four leathery tentacles, each 10 feet in length, grow from its head. An aboleth uses its tail to propel itself through the water and its tentacles to drag itself along dry land. ... Habitat/Society: An aboleth brood consists of a parent and one to three offspring. Though the offspring are as large and as strong as the parent, they defer to the parent in all matters and obey it implicitly. Aboleth have both male and female sexual organs. A mature aboleth reproduces once every five years by concealing itself in a cavern or other remote area, then laying a single egg and covering it in slime. The parent aboleth guards the egg while the embryo grows and develops, a process that takes about five years. A newborn aboleth takes about 10 years to mature. The aboleth spends most of its time searching for slaves, preferably human ones. It is rumored that the aboleth use their slaves to construct huge underwater cities, though none have ever been found. The aboleth are rumored to know ancient, horrible secrets that predate the existence of man, but these rumors are also unsubstantiated. There is no doubt that aboleth retain a staggering amount of knowledge. An offspring acquires all of its parent’s knowledge at birth, and a mature aboleth acquires the knowledge of any intelligent being it consumes. An aboleth’s treasure consists of items taken from its slaves. The items are buried in caverns under a layer of slime resembling gray mud, recognizable by the distinctive rancid grease odor. [/INDENT] Not seeing that as much better. And that's before you look at the rest of the fluff in 4e: The ritual to turn humanoids into Aboleth Servitors. The organisation of Aboleth raiding parties. The link to the Kuo-Toa with their great and dark temples. The link to the Far Realm which automatically makes the Aboleth into lovecraftian horrors despite living in the Underdark. To me the 4e Monster Manual fluff, other than on the single point of its lack of scents, leaves the 2e laundry list of lifecycles in the dust. I'm much more interested in creatures from the Far Realm with rituals to turn humanoids into semi-mindless servitors than I am into egg laying creatures that spend five years sitting on their eggs. (And 2e leaves 3.5 behind). [/QUOTE]
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