Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Things wrong with 4e: Dragons
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="fenriswolf456" data-source="post: 5893434" data-attributes="member: 6687664"><p>Sure it is, and if the creature has the ability, it's listed. 4E blue dragons aren't illusionists, and don't have <em>Mirage Arcana</em>. If they did, it would be listed, with a description of the ability, which then gives you ideas on what it's capable of. Admittedly, 4E has few out-of-combat abilities listed on monsters, seemingly by design ideals.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Dragons serve two basic purposes. They can either be a dangerous encounter that the PCs come across, or they're the BBEG. Everything you need for the dragon to be a dangerous encounter is right there on the page. The issue is that you want your spell-casting scheming blue dragon. Unfortunately, you're playing the edition where blue dragons are aggressive forces of elemental lightning. The basic 4E blue dragon doesn't have the scheming illusionist side, where it waylays and wears down its opponents. It's an aggressive predator that swoops down out of the sky and pummels the party like the sudden storm it personifies. Everything is there, even in the terse 4E micro-fluff. It says where they're commonly found, how they usually approach getting into combat, it gives you a stat block so you can see how intelligent they are and emphasizes particular skills. It gives sample encounters with peons. The only thing it doesn't do is draw a lair, which you may not even use if it's an encounter outside.</p><p> </p><p>If you want something more out of your dragon, you're going to have to do some prep. It's not like it has to be a lot of work. It certainly can be if you really want to detail and flesh things out. If you seriously don't want to do any prep work whatsoever, it really sounds like you need either pre-written modules, or books detailing things lairs and abilities like the Dragon manuals, both of which the publisher provides.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Which you totally can do. Everything is right there. Is it going to be some epic Tolkienesque adventure full of subtle plots and nation-changing scope? Not likely, because no time has been put into developing such an extensive massive plot. Can't think of what monsters to use or a quick plot idea? The DMG provides a sample adventure for you and your buds to jump right into.</p><p> </p><p>But everything requires some prep time to some degree. As a player, you have to make your character. You can't just roll randomly, you have to sit down and put it together, generate your stats, pick your race/class, pick your powers and feats. As a DM, you either arrive on game night with some sort of idea of how you want things to go, such as you reading up on the Blue Dragon, and seeing how it uses its illusionist abilities, so you're already planning on how to wear down your PCs before the dragon finally comes out to fight. Or you arrive with absolutely no plan, which means you're doing your prep on the fly, because you're having to determine what the PCs are facing as things go, then read up on them, then read up on their abilities and minions and traps, and if using miniatures, setting up the map.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>But for all intents and purposes, that's what a MM entry is for. That's why the stat block gives defenses and hit points and combat damage, because its meant to be used for when the PCs get into a fight with one. Could the entry provide some more info on say personality and motivations? Certainly. But in the end it comes down to the context, which is where a DM comes in and decides just what the situation is and how this particular creature will react. And likely there were plans on producing the Draconomicons from the get-go, where they knew they were going to provide a lot more detailed information on their iconic dragons.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>But aren't the characters going to be meeting up with these worshipping gnolls a fair bit, probably more than the demon itself? If not, then it doesn't matter if they have no details. If so, then you would develop aspects of the cultists, since you're wanting to make it interesting for the PCs when they come across them. </p><p> </p><p>I'm not sure what you expect the MM to give you. They present the 'basic' creature. If they're being used for a specific purpose in your campaign that's more specialized, well, the publishers can't anticipate your needs and develop them fully for you. And if they do, then such specialization can then make the creatures harder to use in other ways than the 'generic' version.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Again, it depends on your focus. If you feel that the these goblin bands or gnoll cults aren't worth the time to invest in developing, what does it matter if you're using a generic stat block? Why is the town smithy more worthy of being fully developed than the gnoll high priest?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="fenriswolf456, post: 5893434, member: 6687664"] Sure it is, and if the creature has the ability, it's listed. 4E blue dragons aren't illusionists, and don't have [I]Mirage Arcana[/I]. If they did, it would be listed, with a description of the ability, which then gives you ideas on what it's capable of. Admittedly, 4E has few out-of-combat abilities listed on monsters, seemingly by design ideals. Dragons serve two basic purposes. They can either be a dangerous encounter that the PCs come across, or they're the BBEG. Everything you need for the dragon to be a dangerous encounter is right there on the page. The issue is that you want your spell-casting scheming blue dragon. Unfortunately, you're playing the edition where blue dragons are aggressive forces of elemental lightning. The basic 4E blue dragon doesn't have the scheming illusionist side, where it waylays and wears down its opponents. It's an aggressive predator that swoops down out of the sky and pummels the party like the sudden storm it personifies. Everything is there, even in the terse 4E micro-fluff. It says where they're commonly found, how they usually approach getting into combat, it gives you a stat block so you can see how intelligent they are and emphasizes particular skills. It gives sample encounters with peons. The only thing it doesn't do is draw a lair, which you may not even use if it's an encounter outside. If you want something more out of your dragon, you're going to have to do some prep. It's not like it has to be a lot of work. It certainly can be if you really want to detail and flesh things out. If you seriously don't want to do any prep work whatsoever, it really sounds like you need either pre-written modules, or books detailing things lairs and abilities like the Dragon manuals, both of which the publisher provides. Which you totally can do. Everything is right there. Is it going to be some epic Tolkienesque adventure full of subtle plots and nation-changing scope? Not likely, because no time has been put into developing such an extensive massive plot. Can't think of what monsters to use or a quick plot idea? The DMG provides a sample adventure for you and your buds to jump right into. But everything requires some prep time to some degree. As a player, you have to make your character. You can't just roll randomly, you have to sit down and put it together, generate your stats, pick your race/class, pick your powers and feats. As a DM, you either arrive on game night with some sort of idea of how you want things to go, such as you reading up on the Blue Dragon, and seeing how it uses its illusionist abilities, so you're already planning on how to wear down your PCs before the dragon finally comes out to fight. Or you arrive with absolutely no plan, which means you're doing your prep on the fly, because you're having to determine what the PCs are facing as things go, then read up on them, then read up on their abilities and minions and traps, and if using miniatures, setting up the map. But for all intents and purposes, that's what a MM entry is for. That's why the stat block gives defenses and hit points and combat damage, because its meant to be used for when the PCs get into a fight with one. Could the entry provide some more info on say personality and motivations? Certainly. But in the end it comes down to the context, which is where a DM comes in and decides just what the situation is and how this particular creature will react. And likely there were plans on producing the Draconomicons from the get-go, where they knew they were going to provide a lot more detailed information on their iconic dragons. But aren't the characters going to be meeting up with these worshipping gnolls a fair bit, probably more than the demon itself? If not, then it doesn't matter if they have no details. If so, then you would develop aspects of the cultists, since you're wanting to make it interesting for the PCs when they come across them. I'm not sure what you expect the MM to give you. They present the 'basic' creature. If they're being used for a specific purpose in your campaign that's more specialized, well, the publishers can't anticipate your needs and develop them fully for you. And if they do, then such specialization can then make the creatures harder to use in other ways than the 'generic' version. Again, it depends on your focus. If you feel that the these goblin bands or gnoll cults aren't worth the time to invest in developing, what does it matter if you're using a generic stat block? Why is the town smithy more worthy of being fully developed than the gnoll high priest? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Things wrong with 4e: Dragons
Top