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This Party is Off the Hook! A Miniguide to Party Optimization (by GelationousOctahedron) plus 10 Rules of Party Optimization (by Rancid_Rogue) and Rad
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<blockquote data-quote="LightWarden" data-source="post: 6745054" data-attributes="member: 6803540"><p><strong>Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:</strong></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong>Roles</strong></span></p><p></p><p><strong>Which is most important and why?</strong></p><p></p><p>The general charop consensus seems to be that the two most important roles are leader and striker, with defender coming in a respectable third and controller last. Others put defenders in front of strikers and some put leader as second. There is no where near universal agreement about this and many would put defender above striker and a few would put leader as second. My view is Leader > Striker > Defender > Controller, but with many caveats. I would rather have a second striker, defender, or 1st controller in a party before a second leader in a party of five most of the time, but still think leader is the role I would least want to go without in a party of 3 or more. </p><p></p><p>And with controller more than any other role it depends on the player and build. In my own experience I have seen very effective controllers that were a major asset to the party and ones that barely contributed.</p><p></p><p><strong>What does each role bring to the table?</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Defenders</strong></p><p><strong></strong>All defenders can mark and should be able to punish enemies for ignoring the mark or for trying to move away from them. They should also be tough: able to take attacks through good defenses, high hitpoints and surges and also be able to shrug off conditions</p><p></p><p><strong>Strikers</strong></p><p><strong></strong>Mobility and damage. Also many strikers have ways of protecting themselves (but not allies) from enemies. Strikers also tend to be a bit sneakier than the other classes and often make good scouts.</p><p></p><p><strong>Leaders</strong></p><p><strong></strong>Leaders should be able to add healing, ally buffing/enemy debuffing, enabling extra movement and attacks, and grant saves/remove conditions.</p><p></p><p><strong>Controllers</strong></p><p><strong></strong>The hardest roll to define and thought by many to be the least important of the 4 roles. A good controller can still add a lot to a party: minion clearing and mutitarget damage, terrain modification, forced movement, action denial, and status effects. Usually larger parties benefit more from a controller since there are often more enemies thrown at the party at the same time, which is where many controllers shine since more targets gives you more scope for delaying some enemies from engaging, more opportunity for effective AoE damage, and better options for AoE placement.</p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>Minoring in a role</strong></span></p><p></p><p>Many classes have strong minors in other roles: Paladins can heal with lay on hands, making them like leaders; warlocks have debuffing making them like controllers; some wizards boost their DPR enough to minor in striker; bear shamans can use their spirit to mark their enemies and punish them for moving away. The majority of the time they do not do this as well the primary class, but putting in one or two well built minoring characters can go a long way to making up for a party gap. </p><p></p><p><strong>Who minors in what role:</strong></p><p></p><p>This is a list of the general ways that different builds have minors. I am more than willing to improve on the definition of minoring but for now: Defender means marking and/or being tough on the front line. Striker means high DPR for your role. Leader means ally healing, status removal, action granting, or buffing. Minoring in controller means lots of AoE, inflicting status effects, or forced movement. </p><p> </p><p><strong>Minors in Defender</strong></p><p>[sblock]</p><p><strong>Strikers:</strong></p><p>Rageblood Barbarian</p><p>Pursuit Avenger</p><p>Iron Arms Monk</p><p></p><p><strong>Leaders:</strong></p><p>Battle Cleric</p><p>Bear Shaman</p><p>Most Warlords</p><p>Wrathful Runepriest</p><p>Valor Bard</p><p>Enlightened Ardent</p><p></p><p><strong>Controllers:</strong></p><p><strong></strong>Swarm Druid (Depends on AC and HAE)</p><p>Staff Wizards</p><p>Protecting Seeker</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p><strong>Minors in Striker</strong></p><p>[sblock]</p><p><strong>Defenders</strong></p><p><strong></strong>2-h Fighter</p><p>Ardent Paladin</p><p>Assault Swordmage</p><p></p><p><strong>Leaders</strong></p><p>Stalker Shaman</p><p>Euphoric Ardent</p><p></p><p><strong>Controllers</strong></p><p>Blaster Wizard</p><p>Predator Druid</p><p>Wrathful Invoker</p><p>Vengeful Seeker</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p><strong>Minors in Leader</strong></p><p>[sblock]</p><p><strong>Defenders</strong></p><p>Virtue Paladin</p><p>Lay on Hands Paladin</p><p>Lifeblood Warden</p><p></p><p><strong>Strikers</strong></p><p>Thaneborn Barbarian</p><p></p><p><strong>Controllers</strong></p><p><strong></strong>Preserving Invoker</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p><strong>Minors in Controller</strong></p><p>[sblock]</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Defenders</strong></p><p>Most Polearm Builds for defenders</p><p>Shield Fighter</p><p>Earthstrength Wardens</p><p>Stormheart Wardens</p><p>Ensaring Swordmage</p><p></p><p><strong>Strikers</strong></p><p>Warlocks</p><p>Sorcerers</p><p>Monks</p><p>Thunderborn Barbarian</p><p></p><p><strong>Leaders</strong></p><p><strong></strong>Bards (especially prescient and cunning)</p><p>WorldSpeaker Shaman</p><p>Laser Cleric</p><p>Pacifist Cleric</p><p>Defiant Runepriest</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>Other ways to minor in a role</strong></span></p><p></p><p>Mulitclassing: Almost any character can multiclass to get a class feature of another class. Powers swap feats can add to any area your character is lacking. </p><p></p><p>Paragon paths: both from your own class and other classes can emphasize another role. If you really need to minor in something, thid route can be one of the more effective choices, but be careful since the trend recently is to make it hard for members of a different class to get the full benefit of another classes paragon paths.</p><p></p><p>Hybrid: There is too much about hybrids to go into here, but hyrbids allow you to do two roles at once. Usually you will not do either role as well as someone devoted to just one of the roles, but it is an option.</p><p></p><p>Items: Again, there are many items out there that will help supplement you in areas which are not your primary role </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong>What to do for a party missing a role</strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong></strong></strong></span></p><p></p><p>Muliclassing and power swaps are good for many of these cases. This does not always work and in some cases a role feature is built into a class like the fighter marking enemies he attacks, but there are many times where mutlicassing can give you part of role, such as picking up the paladin or warden marks once an encounter or a daily heal power from a leader. The first parts below are from Tiornys, with the "my advice" parts following.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong>Missing a Defender</strong></strong></span></p><p></p><p><strong>defender</strong></p><p>[sblock]A party missing a defender has fewer overall resources and reduced ability to control melee combat. They are more vulnerable to focused fire and lockdown of ranged characters.</p><p></p><p><strong>Desired encounter resources:</strong></p><p>1-2 ways to allow self/an ally to escape undesired melee</p><p>1-2 strong defensive buffs, including resistances, bonuses to defenses, and temp HPs</p><p></p><p>Tactical considerations: use formations to make it costly for the enemies to all engage a single target, especially one that the enemies have been focusing on. Primarily ranged characters should invest in a decent melee option or place an even higher priority on being able to escape melee or avoid OA's when making ranged/area attacks.</p><p></p><p><strong>My Advice:</strong> Up the other characters ability to take and avoid hits. Try to rotate who takes the hits between encounters if possible. Use summons or pets when possible to create some sort of front line. You can also use characters that do need defending and these fall into two general categories: porcupines (generally strikers who punish enemies for attacking/approaching them) and high defense characters (also usually strikers). Examples of porcupines are riposete strike using brutal scoundrel rpgues or infernal locks using hellish rebuke. Examples of high defense charcters are defensive focused monks or pursuit avengers.[/sblock]</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong>Missing a Striker</strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong></strong></strong></span></p><p></p><p><strong>striker</strong></p><p>[sblock]</p><p>A party missing a striker has a harder time dealing with high priority targets, especially those protected by terrain and/or front line creatures. They are more vulnerable to high powered artillery and controllers.</p><p></p><p><strong>Desired encounter resources:</strong></p><p>1-2 high damage single target powers per party member</p><p>Half of the party either strong at range or having ability to bypass obstacles to get to protected targets</p><p></p><p>Tactical considerations: focusing fire becomes more important with the party's damage output more evenly spread across its members. Strong control from controllers or sticky defenders can enable 1-2 party members to lock down part of the enemy while the rest of the party focuses on a convenient target.</p><p></p><p><strong>My advice:</strong> Up your DPR. Almost any class can do this, but for classes like two hand talent fighters, ardent paladins, predator druids, blaster wizards etc you can get your damage to be close enough to that of a striker to pass as one. For leaders you also need to be concentrating on upping the damage of your party members most of the time through granting extra attacks to your fellow PCs, helping those attacks to hit, and increasing the damage of the attacks that do hit.[/sblock]</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong>Missing a Leader</strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong></strong></strong></span></p><p></p><p><strong>leader</strong></p><p>[sblock]A party missing a leader has access to fewer resources in combat, and has a harder time recovering from adversity. They are more vulnerable to ambushes, losing initiative, and controllers.</p><p></p><p><strong>Desired encounter resources:</strong></p><p>1-2 ways to access surges without using a standard action on second wind</p><p>Multiple ways to gain action advantage on the enemy</p><p></p><p>Tactical considerations: avoidance of reckless tactics becomes more important in a party with fewer ways to help a character who gets in trouble. However, the party can't play too defensively or their resources will be overwhelmed. Focus on dropping the enemy as quickly as possible without taking undue risks. Investment in initiative and anti-ambush skills is even more important than normal.</p><p></p><p><strong>My Advice:</strong> The most obvious thing you need to replace is the midcombat healing. This can be done through some classes that minor in leader like life spirit wardens and lay on hands paladins. You can pick up multiclass 1/day heals through all of the leader feats except shaman, which lets you get 1/encounter heal while costing 2 feats. Many leader powers heal as well so this is a case where power swapping feats might be worth it. Several skill powers can also provide some healing. Don't forget that any character can use second wind and many characters can generate enough temporary hitpoints to reduce their need for healing. Item healing is another way, with potions being the most readily available way to heal. There are a few other ones out there like a healing weapon and river of life gloves that as daily powers let allies heal.</p><p></p><p>The other part of this role is the save granting, ally buffing/enemydebuffing, and party enabling and those are a bit harder to replace. For divine characters a number of channel divinity feats replicate leader effects like buffing/debuffing and healing. There are a number of items like the steadfast ammulet and holy symbol of hope that either grant extra saves or grant bonuses to saves. A few classes can boost ally attacks through their powers like barbarians.[/sblock]</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong>Missing a Controller</strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><strong></strong></strong></span></p><p></p><p><strong>controller</strong></p><p>[sblock]A party missing a controller has a harder time dealing with situations where they are outnumbered. They are more vulnerable to horde tactics, enemy leaders, and well coordinated enemy forces.</p><p></p><p><strong>Desired encounter resources:</strong></p><p>1-2 AoE powers</p><p>Some form of efficient minion clearing, possibly including 1-2 extra AoE powers</p><p>1-2 single target lockdown/debuff powers</p><p></p><p>Tactical considerations: without a character dedicated to disrupting the enemy plan, pay more attention to cleanly executing a plan based on the party's strengths. A striker heavy party should concentrate their fire, a leader heavy party should try to synergize buffs/debuffs, and a defender heavy party should keep multiple enemies occupied.</p><p></p><p><strong>My Advice:</strong> The good thing about controller is that many classes already provide some control, both through multitarget attacks and through debuffing attacks. Getting a character like a centerred breath monk, polearm fighter, or lazer cleric to have a strong minor in controller is very easy. Right now many controllers have very good dailiy attacks and pick up their control more from powers than through class features so poaching a daily or hybridding works better for controllers than for the other four roles most of the time. [/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LightWarden, post: 6745054, member: 6803540"] [b]Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:[/b] [CENTER][Size=4][b]Roles[/b][/size][/CENTER] [b]Which is most important and why?[/b] The general charop consensus seems to be that the two most important roles are leader and striker, with defender coming in a respectable third and controller last. Others put defenders in front of strikers and some put leader as second. There is no where near universal agreement about this and many would put defender above striker and a few would put leader as second. My view is Leader > Striker > Defender > Controller, but with many caveats. I would rather have a second striker, defender, or 1st controller in a party before a second leader in a party of five most of the time, but still think leader is the role I would least want to go without in a party of 3 or more. And with controller more than any other role it depends on the player and build. In my own experience I have seen very effective controllers that were a major asset to the party and ones that barely contributed. [b]What does each role bring to the table?[/b] [b]Defenders [/b]All defenders can mark and should be able to punish enemies for ignoring the mark or for trying to move away from them. They should also be tough: able to take attacks through good defenses, high hitpoints and surges and also be able to shrug off conditions [b]Strikers [/b]Mobility and damage. Also many strikers have ways of protecting themselves (but not allies) from enemies. Strikers also tend to be a bit sneakier than the other classes and often make good scouts. [b]Leaders [/b]Leaders should be able to add healing, ally buffing/enemy debuffing, enabling extra movement and attacks, and grant saves/remove conditions. [b]Controllers [/b]The hardest roll to define and thought by many to be the least important of the 4 roles. A good controller can still add a lot to a party: minion clearing and mutitarget damage, terrain modification, forced movement, action denial, and status effects. Usually larger parties benefit more from a controller since there are often more enemies thrown at the party at the same time, which is where many controllers shine since more targets gives you more scope for delaying some enemies from engaging, more opportunity for effective AoE damage, and better options for AoE placement. [Size=3][b]Minoring in a role[/b][/size] Many classes have strong minors in other roles: Paladins can heal with lay on hands, making them like leaders; warlocks have debuffing making them like controllers; some wizards boost their DPR enough to minor in striker; bear shamans can use their spirit to mark their enemies and punish them for moving away. The majority of the time they do not do this as well the primary class, but putting in one or two well built minoring characters can go a long way to making up for a party gap. [b]Who minors in what role:[/b] This is a list of the general ways that different builds have minors. I am more than willing to improve on the definition of minoring but for now: Defender means marking and/or being tough on the front line. Striker means high DPR for your role. Leader means ally healing, status removal, action granting, or buffing. Minoring in controller means lots of AoE, inflicting status effects, or forced movement. [b]Minors in Defender[/b] [sblock] [b]Strikers:[/b] Rageblood Barbarian Pursuit Avenger Iron Arms Monk [b]Leaders:[/b] Battle Cleric Bear Shaman Most Warlords Wrathful Runepriest Valor Bard Enlightened Ardent [b]Controllers: [/b]Swarm Druid (Depends on AC and HAE) Staff Wizards Protecting Seeker [/sblock] [b]Minors in Striker[/b] [sblock] [b]Defenders [/b]2-h Fighter Ardent Paladin Assault Swordmage [b]Leaders[/b] Stalker Shaman Euphoric Ardent [b]Controllers[/b] Blaster Wizard Predator Druid Wrathful Invoker Vengeful Seeker [/sblock] [b]Minors in Leader[/b] [sblock] [b]Defenders[/b] Virtue Paladin Lay on Hands Paladin Lifeblood Warden [b]Strikers[/b] Thaneborn Barbarian [b]Controllers [/b]Preserving Invoker [/sblock] [b]Minors in Controller[/b] [sblock] [b] Defenders[/b] Most Polearm Builds for defenders Shield Fighter Earthstrength Wardens Stormheart Wardens Ensaring Swordmage [b]Strikers[/b] Warlocks Sorcerers Monks Thunderborn Barbarian [b]Leaders [/b]Bards (especially prescient and cunning) WorldSpeaker Shaman Laser Cleric Pacifist Cleric Defiant Runepriest [/sblock] [Size=3][b]Other ways to minor in a role[/b][/size] Mulitclassing: Almost any character can multiclass to get a class feature of another class. Powers swap feats can add to any area your character is lacking. Paragon paths: both from your own class and other classes can emphasize another role. If you really need to minor in something, thid route can be one of the more effective choices, but be careful since the trend recently is to make it hard for members of a different class to get the full benefit of another classes paragon paths. Hybrid: There is too much about hybrids to go into here, but hyrbids allow you to do two roles at once. Usually you will not do either role as well as someone devoted to just one of the roles, but it is an option. Items: Again, there are many items out there that will help supplement you in areas which are not your primary role [Size=3][b][b]What to do for a party missing a role [/b][/b][/size] Muliclassing and power swaps are good for many of these cases. This does not always work and in some cases a role feature is built into a class like the fighter marking enemies he attacks, but there are many times where mutlicassing can give you part of role, such as picking up the paladin or warden marks once an encounter or a daily heal power from a leader. The first parts below are from Tiornys, with the "my advice" parts following. [Size=3][b][b]Missing a Defender[/b][/b][/size] [b]defender[/b] [sblock]A party missing a defender has fewer overall resources and reduced ability to control melee combat. They are more vulnerable to focused fire and lockdown of ranged characters. [b]Desired encounter resources:[/b] 1-2 ways to allow self/an ally to escape undesired melee 1-2 strong defensive buffs, including resistances, bonuses to defenses, and temp HPs Tactical considerations: use formations to make it costly for the enemies to all engage a single target, especially one that the enemies have been focusing on. Primarily ranged characters should invest in a decent melee option or place an even higher priority on being able to escape melee or avoid OA's when making ranged/area attacks. [b]My Advice:[/b] Up the other characters ability to take and avoid hits. Try to rotate who takes the hits between encounters if possible. Use summons or pets when possible to create some sort of front line. You can also use characters that do need defending and these fall into two general categories: porcupines (generally strikers who punish enemies for attacking/approaching them) and high defense characters (also usually strikers). Examples of porcupines are riposete strike using brutal scoundrel rpgues or infernal locks using hellish rebuke. Examples of high defense charcters are defensive focused monks or pursuit avengers.[/sblock] [Size=3][b][b]Missing a Striker [/b][/b][/size] [b]striker[/b] [sblock] A party missing a striker has a harder time dealing with high priority targets, especially those protected by terrain and/or front line creatures. They are more vulnerable to high powered artillery and controllers. [b]Desired encounter resources:[/b] 1-2 high damage single target powers per party member Half of the party either strong at range or having ability to bypass obstacles to get to protected targets Tactical considerations: focusing fire becomes more important with the party's damage output more evenly spread across its members. Strong control from controllers or sticky defenders can enable 1-2 party members to lock down part of the enemy while the rest of the party focuses on a convenient target. [b]My advice:[/b] Up your DPR. Almost any class can do this, but for classes like two hand talent fighters, ardent paladins, predator druids, blaster wizards etc you can get your damage to be close enough to that of a striker to pass as one. For leaders you also need to be concentrating on upping the damage of your party members most of the time through granting extra attacks to your fellow PCs, helping those attacks to hit, and increasing the damage of the attacks that do hit.[/sblock] [Size=3][b][b]Missing a Leader [/b][/b][/size] [b]leader[/b] [sblock]A party missing a leader has access to fewer resources in combat, and has a harder time recovering from adversity. They are more vulnerable to ambushes, losing initiative, and controllers. [b]Desired encounter resources:[/b] 1-2 ways to access surges without using a standard action on second wind Multiple ways to gain action advantage on the enemy Tactical considerations: avoidance of reckless tactics becomes more important in a party with fewer ways to help a character who gets in trouble. However, the party can't play too defensively or their resources will be overwhelmed. Focus on dropping the enemy as quickly as possible without taking undue risks. Investment in initiative and anti-ambush skills is even more important than normal. [b]My Advice:[/b] The most obvious thing you need to replace is the midcombat healing. This can be done through some classes that minor in leader like life spirit wardens and lay on hands paladins. You can pick up multiclass 1/day heals through all of the leader feats except shaman, which lets you get 1/encounter heal while costing 2 feats. Many leader powers heal as well so this is a case where power swapping feats might be worth it. Several skill powers can also provide some healing. Don't forget that any character can use second wind and many characters can generate enough temporary hitpoints to reduce their need for healing. Item healing is another way, with potions being the most readily available way to heal. There are a few other ones out there like a healing weapon and river of life gloves that as daily powers let allies heal. The other part of this role is the save granting, ally buffing/enemydebuffing, and party enabling and those are a bit harder to replace. For divine characters a number of channel divinity feats replicate leader effects like buffing/debuffing and healing. There are a number of items like the steadfast ammulet and holy symbol of hope that either grant extra saves or grant bonuses to saves. A few classes can boost ally attacks through their powers like barbarians.[/sblock] [Size=3][b][b]Missing a Controller [/b][/b][/size] [b]controller[/b] [sblock]A party missing a controller has a harder time dealing with situations where they are outnumbered. They are more vulnerable to horde tactics, enemy leaders, and well coordinated enemy forces. [b]Desired encounter resources:[/b] 1-2 AoE powers Some form of efficient minion clearing, possibly including 1-2 extra AoE powers 1-2 single target lockdown/debuff powers Tactical considerations: without a character dedicated to disrupting the enemy plan, pay more attention to cleanly executing a plan based on the party's strengths. A striker heavy party should concentrate their fire, a leader heavy party should try to synergize buffs/debuffs, and a defender heavy party should keep multiple enemies occupied. [b]My Advice:[/b] The good thing about controller is that many classes already provide some control, both through multitarget attacks and through debuffing attacks. Getting a character like a centerred breath monk, polearm fighter, or lazer cleric to have a strong minor in controller is very easy. Right now many controllers have very good dailiy attacks and pick up their control more from powers than through class features so poaching a daily or hybridding works better for controllers than for the other four roles most of the time. [/sblock] [/QUOTE]
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