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This Party is Off the Hook! A Miniguide to Party Optimization (by GelationousOctahedron) plus 10 Rules of Party Optimization (by Rancid_Rogue) and Rad
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<blockquote data-quote="LightWarden" data-source="post: 6745058" data-attributes="member: 6803540"><p><strong>Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:</strong></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>Party Size</strong></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>What is the ideal party size?</strong></span></p><p></p><p>4E is designed around having 5 characters in a party. Other sizes work fine, and most people on this discussion board have had good experiences with parties from 3-6 characters in size. Less than 3 tends to be a bit tricky since unless you hybrid you are missing full members of two roles. More than 6 tends to bog down some. It is easier to make sure your get each role, skill, etc. filled, but solo leaders and defenders can get stretched a bit thin. The following is general advice for each party size.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>What to do if I have 2 members?</strong></span></p><p></p><p><strong>2 PCs</strong></p><p>[sblock]</p><p>This is one of the hardest ones to answer, but poster sanityfaerie gave some good advice in this thread(x) about two character parties:</p><p></p><p>"- First, to consider ranged/melee</p><p> - Really, everyone needs to be able to function in either here. You will find yourself in cases where range damage is the only thing that matters (when the enemy controller that is making the rest of the fight miserable is flying, for example), and in those cases, you don't really have enough people for anyone to sit it out. You will find yourself in cases where you are swarmed, and in those cases, everyone had better be prepared to function at least reasonably well in hand-to-hand. There are caveats - if you have a ranged-heavy striker, then you might be able to get away with having your second character be pure melee - but being able to function in both is pretty valuable</p><p></p><p>- Second, let's look at roles.</p><p> - Leader: You'll want some. You don't necessarily need a full one. Things like having one or both party members as dwarves, having a paladin, and/or 2-feat MCing to shaman for the healing spirit can cover you here reasonably well. The healing here is critical, because you can't afford to let either character drop. At the same time, the buffing is often less valuable, because you don't have as many fellow PCs to buff. A two-player party is no place for a lazy warlord.</p><p> - Defender: There's really two ways to go here. You can go true defender/squishy, but it's probably not worth it. The guy in the back will be too fragile, and the guy in the front will have to spend more build range than it's worth to get enough stickiness. The other option, and by far the more sane here, is to go with a pair of characters, both of whom are relatively durable. If you're going ranged/melee pair (where one character intends to spend most of their time in melee, and the other intends to spend most of their time in the back ranks) then clearly the guy in front should be investing *somewhat* more heavily in durability, but it's still the case that he won't be as sticky as a defender - the party doesn't have enough resources overall to make it worthwhile to have him as sticky as a defender - so more folks will get past, and your other character needs to be able to handle that.</p><p> - Striker: damage is good. Damage is always good. More damage is better. In this party, you cannot afford to have anyone who isn't at least reasonably good at dealing damage, and the more striker you can fit in, the better.</p><p> - Controller: Special case here. Ignore the controller role. Instead, thing about controller effects. At a basic level, don't pay for effects that you can't use. If you're stacking forced movement, you should know what you intend to do with it. If you're stacking dazes, you should know why. The controller role is one of those things that you get as much as you pay for, so make sure that you only pay for things that will help you.</p><p></p><p>- Third, take synergy.</p><p>You're going to have one other PC to work with, and if one of you goes down and doesn't come back up almost immediately, you've probably both lost already. Working out two-player synergies can be a really good thing for you. Things like this involve...</p><p>- Prone, daze, prone-exploitation, and CA-exploitation: A relatively simple set that's really quite difficult to put together all in one character, but becomes significantly easier with two. Prone+daze is an excellent way to take an enemy out of the fight, prone+prone-exploit can reap some serious damage rewards, prone or daze alone with some forced movement can limit the enemy's choices pretty significantly, and both prone and daze grant CA (in addition to making it easier to maneuver for flanking).</p><p>- Vuln and vuln-exploitation: frostcombo, radiant mafia, and even necrotic via blightbeast: Often even better in a full-party setting, but work just fine with two-player</p><p></p><p>- Fourth, special considerations.</p><p>There are things to bear in mind as a limited-size party....</p><p>- Radiant damage. It would be really very helpful if you could manage at least one PC with at-will access to radiant damage, just because of all fo the undead that are so much less pleasant when you have to go without. At the same time, being completely beholden to any one damage type is both very easy for a two-person party trying to work the synergies and potentially lethal.</p><p>- CA: flanking is a lot harder to come by when there's only one other person in the party. Rogues are still playable, but they'll need to have a plan from level 1 on how they're going to get their CA</p><p>- Attack-granting: becomes a lot less useful when you only have one other person to grant attacks to.</p><p>- Charging: you cannot charge if the enemies are all adjacent to you, and that's a lot more likely in a party of 2</p><p></p><p>Fifth, skills - if yours is a campaign that will care about skills at all.</p><p>- You'll probably want wisdom.</p><p>- You'll probably want charisma.</p><p>- You'll probably want intelligence</p><p>- You may want dex</p><p>Of course, this doesn't mesh well with reality - particularly since you'll likely want a fair bit of con as well."</p><p></p><p>[/sblock]</p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>What to do if I have 3 members?</strong></span></p><p></p><p><strong>3 PCs</strong></p><p>[sblock]</p><p></p><p>You will not be able to cover all 4 roles all the way for sure. So you are going to need to have someone at least minor in whatever role or roles you are missing. If you have to go without one role, controller is probably the best to drop since they are more useful in larger parties. </p><p></p><p>Here is some good advice from Auspex7 in a thread (x)about 3 member parties</p><p></p><p><strong>Small Parties at the Table:</strong></p><p></p><p>a) Small parties mean smaller numbers of enemies, because of the encounter budget system. The only way this isn't true is if you're facing a slew of minions. </p><p></p><p>--Nova and front-loaded offense <em>gains value</em> against smaller numbers of enemies, as you are removing a higher % of incoming damage and control from the grid with each individual monster you kill.</p><p></p><p>--With fewer targets on the grid, you're generally able to apply Novas and other damage bursts more quickly, as clear paths are more readily available, and the process of identifying key targets (example-- playing the ever-popular, "Whose Aura Is It?!") becomes quicker. </p><p></p><p>b) With small parties, each individual's offensive output has a higher impact, because it represents a larger % of the party's total offense. Pacifists lose their shine in 3 man parties for this reason. Similarly, high-octane Leaders gain shine for the same reason.</p><p></p><p>c) with smaller numbers of enemies on the grid, the total drain on a Leader's healing ability is reduced. Simply put, when you're the only Leader in a party of 5, you've got a lot more ground to cover, and your healing has to offset a higher volume of incoming damage (from the increased number of monsters on the grid).</p><p></p><p>d) with smaller numbers of monsters on the grid, control becomes a bigger consideration. Again, this is a direct reflection of the % of each Team constituted by any one creature.</p><p></p><p>I don't think anyone will (or could) argue with those points.</p><p></p><p><strong>Optimization 'needs' for a 3-man party:</strong></p><p></p><p>a) Defender, Leader, and... offense. You don't want anyone to be lacking in punch, because any one of you could be hit with control effects. Example: Chaladin, Pacifist Cleric, Ranger. If that Ranger gets slapped with a stun, you're not putting out very much damage that turn. </p><p></p><p>b) an emergency heal, in case the Leader gets blitzed."</p><p></p><p>[/sblock]</p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>What to do if I have 4 members?</strong></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>What to do if I have 5 members?</strong></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>What to do if I have 6 members?</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>What to do if I have 7+ members?</strong></span></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:</strong></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong>Other </strong></span></p><p></p><p>10 rules of Party Optimzation(x) Full of good advice.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LightWarden, post: 6745058, member: 6803540"] [b]Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:[/b] [CENTER][Size=3][b]Party Size[/b][/size][/CENTER] [Size=3][b]What is the ideal party size?[/b][/size] 4E is designed around having 5 characters in a party. Other sizes work fine, and most people on this discussion board have had good experiences with parties from 3-6 characters in size. Less than 3 tends to be a bit tricky since unless you hybrid you are missing full members of two roles. More than 6 tends to bog down some. It is easier to make sure your get each role, skill, etc. filled, but solo leaders and defenders can get stretched a bit thin. The following is general advice for each party size. [Size=3][b]What to do if I have 2 members?[/b][/size] [b]2 PCs[/b] [sblock] This is one of the hardest ones to answer, but poster sanityfaerie gave some good advice in this thread(x) about two character parties: "- First, to consider ranged/melee - Really, everyone needs to be able to function in either here. You will find yourself in cases where range damage is the only thing that matters (when the enemy controller that is making the rest of the fight miserable is flying, for example), and in those cases, you don't really have enough people for anyone to sit it out. You will find yourself in cases where you are swarmed, and in those cases, everyone had better be prepared to function at least reasonably well in hand-to-hand. There are caveats - if you have a ranged-heavy striker, then you might be able to get away with having your second character be pure melee - but being able to function in both is pretty valuable - Second, let's look at roles. - Leader: You'll want some. You don't necessarily need a full one. Things like having one or both party members as dwarves, having a paladin, and/or 2-feat MCing to shaman for the healing spirit can cover you here reasonably well. The healing here is critical, because you can't afford to let either character drop. At the same time, the buffing is often less valuable, because you don't have as many fellow PCs to buff. A two-player party is no place for a lazy warlord. - Defender: There's really two ways to go here. You can go true defender/squishy, but it's probably not worth it. The guy in the back will be too fragile, and the guy in the front will have to spend more build range than it's worth to get enough stickiness. The other option, and by far the more sane here, is to go with a pair of characters, both of whom are relatively durable. If you're going ranged/melee pair (where one character intends to spend most of their time in melee, and the other intends to spend most of their time in the back ranks) then clearly the guy in front should be investing *somewhat* more heavily in durability, but it's still the case that he won't be as sticky as a defender - the party doesn't have enough resources overall to make it worthwhile to have him as sticky as a defender - so more folks will get past, and your other character needs to be able to handle that. - Striker: damage is good. Damage is always good. More damage is better. In this party, you cannot afford to have anyone who isn't at least reasonably good at dealing damage, and the more striker you can fit in, the better. - Controller: Special case here. Ignore the controller role. Instead, thing about controller effects. At a basic level, don't pay for effects that you can't use. If you're stacking forced movement, you should know what you intend to do with it. If you're stacking dazes, you should know why. The controller role is one of those things that you get as much as you pay for, so make sure that you only pay for things that will help you. - Third, take synergy. You're going to have one other PC to work with, and if one of you goes down and doesn't come back up almost immediately, you've probably both lost already. Working out two-player synergies can be a really good thing for you. Things like this involve... - Prone, daze, prone-exploitation, and CA-exploitation: A relatively simple set that's really quite difficult to put together all in one character, but becomes significantly easier with two. Prone+daze is an excellent way to take an enemy out of the fight, prone+prone-exploit can reap some serious damage rewards, prone or daze alone with some forced movement can limit the enemy's choices pretty significantly, and both prone and daze grant CA (in addition to making it easier to maneuver for flanking). - Vuln and vuln-exploitation: frostcombo, radiant mafia, and even necrotic via blightbeast: Often even better in a full-party setting, but work just fine with two-player - Fourth, special considerations. There are things to bear in mind as a limited-size party.... - Radiant damage. It would be really very helpful if you could manage at least one PC with at-will access to radiant damage, just because of all fo the undead that are so much less pleasant when you have to go without. At the same time, being completely beholden to any one damage type is both very easy for a two-person party trying to work the synergies and potentially lethal. - CA: flanking is a lot harder to come by when there's only one other person in the party. Rogues are still playable, but they'll need to have a plan from level 1 on how they're going to get their CA - Attack-granting: becomes a lot less useful when you only have one other person to grant attacks to. - Charging: you cannot charge if the enemies are all adjacent to you, and that's a lot more likely in a party of 2 Fifth, skills - if yours is a campaign that will care about skills at all. - You'll probably want wisdom. - You'll probably want charisma. - You'll probably want intelligence - You may want dex Of course, this doesn't mesh well with reality - particularly since you'll likely want a fair bit of con as well." [/sblock] [Size=3][b]What to do if I have 3 members?[/b][/size] [b]3 PCs[/b] [sblock] You will not be able to cover all 4 roles all the way for sure. So you are going to need to have someone at least minor in whatever role or roles you are missing. If you have to go without one role, controller is probably the best to drop since they are more useful in larger parties. Here is some good advice from Auspex7 in a thread (x)about 3 member parties [b]Small Parties at the Table:[/b] a) Small parties mean smaller numbers of enemies, because of the encounter budget system. The only way this isn't true is if you're facing a slew of minions. --Nova and front-loaded offense [i]gains value[/i] against smaller numbers of enemies, as you are removing a higher % of incoming damage and control from the grid with each individual monster you kill. --With fewer targets on the grid, you're generally able to apply Novas and other damage bursts more quickly, as clear paths are more readily available, and the process of identifying key targets (example-- playing the ever-popular, "Whose Aura Is It?!") becomes quicker. b) With small parties, each individual's offensive output has a higher impact, because it represents a larger % of the party's total offense. Pacifists lose their shine in 3 man parties for this reason. Similarly, high-octane Leaders gain shine for the same reason. c) with smaller numbers of enemies on the grid, the total drain on a Leader's healing ability is reduced. Simply put, when you're the only Leader in a party of 5, you've got a lot more ground to cover, and your healing has to offset a higher volume of incoming damage (from the increased number of monsters on the grid). d) with smaller numbers of monsters on the grid, control becomes a bigger consideration. Again, this is a direct reflection of the % of each Team constituted by any one creature. I don't think anyone will (or could) argue with those points. [b]Optimization 'needs' for a 3-man party:[/b] a) Defender, Leader, and... offense. You don't want anyone to be lacking in punch, because any one of you could be hit with control effects. Example: Chaladin, Pacifist Cleric, Ranger. If that Ranger gets slapped with a stun, you're not putting out very much damage that turn. b) an emergency heal, in case the Leader gets blitzed." [/sblock] [Size=3][b] What to do if I have 4 members?[/b][/size] [Size=3][b]What to do if I have 5 members?[/b][/size] [Size=3][b]What to do if I have 6 members? What to do if I have 7+ members?[/b][/size] [b]Originally posted by GelatinousOctahedron:[/b] [CENTER][Size=4][b]Other [/b][/size][/CENTER] 10 rules of Party Optimzation(x) Full of good advice. [/QUOTE]
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