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<blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6033749" data-attributes="member: 6688937"><p>I think the nature of the objection is that all the fiddly bits of 4e combat rules actually detract from your flexibility in narration. Consider the flexibility you have when narrating your character's actions during a Skill Challenge, then compare that to combat.There's no particular mechanical reason* you couldn't use the exact same (Skill Challenge) structure for 4e combats (make Melee and the like Skills). That would make 4e a much more narrative (and I think faster) game. In that way, you may be right, its an issue with that style of linkage between narrative and the rule substrate.</p><p></p><p>For some people (myself included) the disjunction between the one and the other is a bit jarring. It feels like you suddenly "drop out of warp" when combat starts. You can go straight from fairly free-form narration and interpretation of abilities/skills to suddenly "I deal 8 damage to him, then move 3 squares here, then here, then here and <em>that one</em> gets a yellow marker for the condition I put on him. That also gives Bob's guy flanking." To a significant degree, I sometimes feel like 4e is two separate very-distinct games that alternate depending on the circumstances.</p><p></p><p>Thinking about it, I'm not sure this would even matter to me. Except that I've also played plenty of narrative-heavy games that <em>do</em> successfully stay in that lighter mode regardless of the situation. I'm not sure how well they would meet the audience's "feels like D&D" expectation (okay, I'm confident they wouldn't<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" />), but it served to highlight it for me. </p><p></p><p>Now, there are some (I think [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] would be one, [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] would be another, given his post above) who find that the "fiddly bit" mechanics of 4e are evocative of narrative elements, and serve to further illuminate the characters/monsters. I certainly don't think that's true of everyone. I know its not (in general) for me. I should take this opportunity to point out that I also had this problem with 3e, especially as characters approached/passed about 10th level. In both cases the mental/accounting weight necessary for using them can grind us out of "story mode" entirely. (Which is not to say that the "tactical mode" that then engages cannot be fun, it can be and often is.)</p><p></p><p>*plenty of historical sacred cow reasons, though.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ratskinner, post: 6033749, member: 6688937"] I think the nature of the objection is that all the fiddly bits of 4e combat rules actually detract from your flexibility in narration. Consider the flexibility you have when narrating your character's actions during a Skill Challenge, then compare that to combat.There's no particular mechanical reason* you couldn't use the exact same (Skill Challenge) structure for 4e combats (make Melee and the like Skills). That would make 4e a much more narrative (and I think faster) game. In that way, you may be right, its an issue with that style of linkage between narrative and the rule substrate. For some people (myself included) the disjunction between the one and the other is a bit jarring. It feels like you suddenly "drop out of warp" when combat starts. You can go straight from fairly free-form narration and interpretation of abilities/skills to suddenly "I deal 8 damage to him, then move 3 squares here, then here, then here and [I]that one[/I] gets a yellow marker for the condition I put on him. That also gives Bob's guy flanking." To a significant degree, I sometimes feel like 4e is two separate very-distinct games that alternate depending on the circumstances. Thinking about it, I'm not sure this would even matter to me. Except that I've also played plenty of narrative-heavy games that [I]do[/I] successfully stay in that lighter mode regardless of the situation. I'm not sure how well they would meet the audience's "feels like D&D" expectation (okay, I'm confident they wouldn't:(), but it served to highlight it for me. Now, there are some (I think [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] would be one, [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] would be another, given his post above) who find that the "fiddly bit" mechanics of 4e are evocative of narrative elements, and serve to further illuminate the characters/monsters. I certainly don't think that's true of everyone. I know its not (in general) for me. I should take this opportunity to point out that I also had this problem with 3e, especially as characters approached/passed about 10th level. In both cases the mental/accounting weight necessary for using them can grind us out of "story mode" entirely. (Which is not to say that the "tactical mode" that then engages cannot be fun, it can be and often is.) *plenty of historical sacred cow reasons, though. [/QUOTE]
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