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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6033848" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>But those people weren't born that way. They learned the techniques, or taught themselves. There's no reason why a D&D rulebook can't try and explain them, and what to do with them. (DMG2 is a very halting step in that direction, in its material cribbed by Robin Laws from his (better, in my view) HeroQuest Revised rulebook.)</p><p></p><p>Of course not! In the same way that, in combat, we correlate the rise and fall of hit points, flanking, distance, position etc to various states of the fiction - and it is the <em>fiction</em> that helps generate the excitement - so the same has to happen in a skill challenge. It is a flaw of the 4e rulebooks that they don't really explain how to do this.</p><p></p><p>The game needs to decide what XP are for, and therefore on what basis they should be awarded. In 4e they are mostly a pacing mechanism, ensuring a steady progression up the levels as the game is played, creating a default, generic "metaplot" (a bit like the role of the HeroWars in the HeroWars version of Gloranthan roleplaying).</p><p></p><p>In AD&D, XP rules do something very different - they incentivise a certain sort of goal (looting, and to a much lesser extent killing), and reward those players who are best at it.</p><p></p><p>I don't really understand <em>what</em> XP are for in 2nd ed, or 3E.</p><p></p><p>They are framed exclusively in ingame terms. There is nothing comparable to the guidelines in the Essentials Rules Compendium, which indicates the expected success rate for various generic PC builds against each of the DC categories (Easy, Moderate, Hard) and how these can be used (in skill challenges, particularly) to achieve desired pacing effects.</p><p></p><p>Bounded accuracy should actually make it <em>easier</em> to give that sort of advice.</p><p></p><p>I like the turn-by-turn agonising - for me, that's what generates the emotional pressure on the players - but obviously that is a matter of taste.</p><p></p><p>I like interrupts for a different reason - they reduce the "stop motion" vibe of turn-by-turn resolution.</p><p></p><p>I can't speak for [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], but my own take on this is that you're looking for the "awesome storytelling" in the wrong spot. The awesomeness isn't in the bonus damage - it's in what is <em>done</em> with the bonus damage. That's why the fictional framing, including the stakes of a combat, are so important. (My personal mantra is "no random combats".) Once the framing is in place, the bonus damage and knocking people over <em>is</em> awesome, because of <em>who</em> you're damaging, and <em>what it is</em> that you're knocking them into. And this is all the more awesome because it's your ancestral spirit that is letting you win this great victory.</p><p></p><p>I hope that's clear, but here are some comparison to try and help make it so. In Runequest, you might have epic framing, but there is almost no decision a player can make, once his/her PC is in combat, to change things. All you can do is roll the dice and see what happens. (By the way, this is why randomly-triggere special moves, or special effects on a crit, are no substitue for encounter powers in my playstyle at least.)</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, in a well-designed tactical boardgame or card game the player has many decisions to make that will change the situation in various ways, but nothing is at stake - there is no fiction, and no fictional positioning. And this is true of the resources - a Magic card is just a Magic card, however flavourful its colour text - and of the outcome - I win or lose the game, but there is no shared imaginary space in which epic deeds were done.</p><p></p><p>4e supports epic framing of both player resources, and conflict outcomes, <em>and</em> supports multiple points of player intervention into the situation to determine the outcome. For me, that's its great strength. And what, at the moment, I feel is missing from the playtest - in combat, certainly, but even moreso out of combat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6033848, member: 42582"] But those people weren't born that way. They learned the techniques, or taught themselves. There's no reason why a D&D rulebook can't try and explain them, and what to do with them. (DMG2 is a very halting step in that direction, in its material cribbed by Robin Laws from his (better, in my view) HeroQuest Revised rulebook.) Of course not! In the same way that, in combat, we correlate the rise and fall of hit points, flanking, distance, position etc to various states of the fiction - and it is the [I]fiction[/I] that helps generate the excitement - so the same has to happen in a skill challenge. It is a flaw of the 4e rulebooks that they don't really explain how to do this. The game needs to decide what XP are for, and therefore on what basis they should be awarded. In 4e they are mostly a pacing mechanism, ensuring a steady progression up the levels as the game is played, creating a default, generic "metaplot" (a bit like the role of the HeroWars in the HeroWars version of Gloranthan roleplaying). In AD&D, XP rules do something very different - they incentivise a certain sort of goal (looting, and to a much lesser extent killing), and reward those players who are best at it. I don't really understand [I]what[/I] XP are for in 2nd ed, or 3E. They are framed exclusively in ingame terms. There is nothing comparable to the guidelines in the Essentials Rules Compendium, which indicates the expected success rate for various generic PC builds against each of the DC categories (Easy, Moderate, Hard) and how these can be used (in skill challenges, particularly) to achieve desired pacing effects. Bounded accuracy should actually make it [I]easier[/I] to give that sort of advice. I like the turn-by-turn agonising - for me, that's what generates the emotional pressure on the players - but obviously that is a matter of taste. I like interrupts for a different reason - they reduce the "stop motion" vibe of turn-by-turn resolution. I can't speak for [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], but my own take on this is that you're looking for the "awesome storytelling" in the wrong spot. The awesomeness isn't in the bonus damage - it's in what is [I]done[/I] with the bonus damage. That's why the fictional framing, including the stakes of a combat, are so important. (My personal mantra is "no random combats".) Once the framing is in place, the bonus damage and knocking people over [I]is[/I] awesome, because of [I]who[/I] you're damaging, and [I]what it is[/I] that you're knocking them into. And this is all the more awesome because it's your ancestral spirit that is letting you win this great victory. I hope that's clear, but here are some comparison to try and help make it so. In Runequest, you might have epic framing, but there is almost no decision a player can make, once his/her PC is in combat, to change things. All you can do is roll the dice and see what happens. (By the way, this is why randomly-triggere special moves, or special effects on a crit, are no substitue for encounter powers in my playstyle at least.) On the other hand, in a well-designed tactical boardgame or card game the player has many decisions to make that will change the situation in various ways, but nothing is at stake - there is no fiction, and no fictional positioning. And this is true of the resources - a Magic card is just a Magic card, however flavourful its colour text - and of the outcome - I win or lose the game, but there is no shared imaginary space in which epic deeds were done. 4e supports epic framing of both player resources, and conflict outcomes, [I]and[/I] supports multiple points of player intervention into the situation to determine the outcome. For me, that's its great strength. And what, at the moment, I feel is missing from the playtest - in combat, certainly, but even moreso out of combat. [/QUOTE]
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