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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6033922" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">Thank you @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/pemerton.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: yellow">pemerton<!-- google_ad_section_end --></span></a><SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_6033848", true); </SCRIPT> for the effort of that long post. That's a lot of thought gathering and coherently transfering it onto page. Hopefully, it communicates well. I echo pretty much every word of it.<O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">There is definitely a disconnect (unsurprisingly) between how some folks adore the granularity of 4e's combat and how it works as a conduit for their fictional counterpart and those who find it "jarring to immersion" or "discordant to some hypothetical, fictional counterpart." I would bet that this has much to do with the way people have inherited/groomed their information processing and synthesizing skills. For some folks, visual aids (be it the language of rules jargon or a battle grid or meta-game transparency) are a jump-off point for their creative well--spring. For others, those same visual aids transmit "writer's block" or (to map to cinema) their expectations are to watch a movie unfold without "seeing the set." "Seeing the set", "hearing the directorial cues" and "smelling the coffee brewed by the interns" is anathema to their "suspension of disbelief expectations" becomes a non-starter. Perhaps for others it is like an artist's (I know a few highly successful professionals and its amusing how symmetrical they are here) expectations of having no formalized idea, no codified rigidity to abide by...just an empty medium and their mind's wanderings...and how much they grate when the design engine of their empty mind is weighted with expectation and direction. Regardless of what it is, I personally (and probably others) fall into the first group. Visual aids are a jump off point. Boundless space, or incoherent (or incomplete) direction, sows discord in my mind and the process of creation and the final product is less than desirable. <O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">Regarding Skill Challenges generally and perceptions: While some may find Skill Challenges (relative to other systems) as bereft of, or lacking, in codification as a mechanical resolution framework (or at least lacking in advice and direction by the designers) I’ve seen plenty of other decrying the level of codification to non-combat resolution that the Skill Challenge has brought about as they feel that free-form role-playing and player skill should solely be brought to bear in resolution of these challenges. Others still feel that it doesn’t do the job and behaves merely like an exercise in “dice rolling and arithmetic”. Beyond those three, I’ve seen more than a few cases whereby people are relatively ok with them as a resolution tool but intensely annoyed with the technique of decoupling linear cause and effect of skill usage with outcome and the corresponding impact on “world building/internal consistency” (the now infamous “Ride Skill and the Gorge”). Like everything else regarding 4e, it seems opinions run the gamut. My take is that these opinions are derived from backgrounds, experiences and expectations (engineer mindsets vs artist mindsets versus “step on up” agenda versus “right to dream” agenda). <O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">For my (and my group) sensibilities regarding combat, the clear meta-game tools and framework, the elegant rules jargon, the battle grid, the thematic and gamist jargon of powers and features compel my creative center (and that of my group) toward composing evocative fiction. It is a conduit. It doesn't interpose itself. Further, the PC build capabilities and the thematic, archetype-centered powers interact with the combat mechanics to frame the “who”, “why” and “how” of the players considerably well.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">For my (and my group) sensibilities regarding Skill Challenges as non-combat resolution, there is an implicit “story now” agenda embedded in the tool begging you to take advantage of it. We play under those auspices using the same techniques that other narrative resolution systems make explicit (where the 4e designers seem to have made implicit…possibly purposefully). I don’t feel that we add anything beyond RAW, we just have a refined, collective technique and an understanding of RAI and how to get from “an exercise in dice rolling and arithmetic” (much like combat) to the resolution of an evocative, genre-relevant scene by way of the mechanical framework coupled with our efforts/technique. We’re practiced, experienced and on the same page. And it yields results. Again, the framework assists in the composition of fiction relative to (i) genre tropes we’re attempting to conjure and (ii) the “who”, “why” and “how” of the players considerably well.<O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">Both a meta-game heavy, granular, thematic combat system and a skeletal (yet codified), meta-game heavy framework for non-combat resolution can be turned into “an exercise in dice rolling and arithmetic” or a “jarring, discordant experience” with expectations, agenda, technique and effort that are at odds. <O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">Unrelated (but related to my prior post), Milestones/APs and character theme/story driven rewards (Minor and Major Quest XP) are wonderful at facilitating the same things. Further, if the players are brought into this meta-game (at character creation or between sessions), these two become considerably more coherent (with regards to the DM and players’ understanding of them relative to the characters in play) and thus much more facilitative. <O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">As before, I still feel play examples would have more explanatory power. If anyone feels the same, I would be willing to break down a long-time character and how:</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">- </span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">PC build rules/powers<O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">- </span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Meta-game heavy, granular, codified combat<O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">- </span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Skill Challenges<O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p><p><span style="color: white"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">- </span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Character <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/ /><st1:Street w:st=" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /><st1:address w:st="on">Theme/Story Drive</st1:address></st1:Street> Rewards (Milestones/APs and Minor and Major Quest XP)</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">Are all extremely conducive (rather than antagonistic) toward bringing this character’s theme and story to life (and incentivizing the player to that end). As I considerate in my mind, it would likely be a long, weighty post so I’d rather not produce the effort for no purpose.<O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></O<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6033922, member: 6696971"] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]Thank you @[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/pemerton.html"][COLOR=yellow]pemerton<!-- google_ad_section_end -->[/COLOR][/URL]<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_6033848", true); </SCRIPT> for the effort of that long post. That's a lot of thought gathering and coherently transfering it onto page. Hopefully, it communicates well. I echo pretty much every word of it.<O:p</O:p[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]<O:p</O:p[/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]There is definitely a disconnect (unsurprisingly) between how some folks adore the granularity of 4e's combat and how it works as a conduit for their fictional counterpart and those who find it "jarring to immersion" or "discordant to some hypothetical, fictional counterpart." I would bet that this has much to do with the way people have inherited/groomed their information processing and synthesizing skills. For some folks, visual aids (be it the language of rules jargon or a battle grid or meta-game transparency) are a jump-off point for their creative well--spring. For others, those same visual aids transmit "writer's block" or (to map to cinema) their expectations are to watch a movie unfold without "seeing the set." "Seeing the set", "hearing the directorial cues" and "smelling the coffee brewed by the interns" is anathema to their "suspension of disbelief expectations" becomes a non-starter. Perhaps for others it is like an artist's (I know a few highly successful professionals and its amusing how symmetrical they are here) expectations of having no formalized idea, no codified rigidity to abide by...just an empty medium and their mind's wanderings...and how much they grate when the design engine of their empty mind is weighted with expectation and direction. Regardless of what it is, I personally (and probably others) fall into the first group. Visual aids are a jump off point. Boundless space, or incoherent (or incomplete) direction, sows discord in my mind and the process of creation and the final product is less than desirable. <O:p[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]Regarding Skill Challenges generally and perceptions: While some may find Skill Challenges (relative to other systems) as bereft of, or lacking, in codification as a mechanical resolution framework (or at least lacking in advice and direction by the designers) I’ve seen plenty of other decrying the level of codification to non-combat resolution that the Skill Challenge has brought about as they feel that free-form role-playing and player skill should solely be brought to bear in resolution of these challenges. Others still feel that it doesn’t do the job and behaves merely like an exercise in “dice rolling and arithmetic”. Beyond those three, I’ve seen more than a few cases whereby people are relatively ok with them as a resolution tool but intensely annoyed with the technique of decoupling linear cause and effect of skill usage with outcome and the corresponding impact on “world building/internal consistency” (the now infamous “Ride Skill and the Gorge”). Like everything else regarding 4e, it seems opinions run the gamut. My take is that these opinions are derived from backgrounds, experiences and expectations (engineer mindsets vs artist mindsets versus “step on up” agenda versus “right to dream” agenda). <O:p[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]For my (and my group) sensibilities regarding combat, the clear meta-game tools and framework, the elegant rules jargon, the battle grid, the thematic and gamist jargon of powers and features compel my creative center (and that of my group) toward composing evocative fiction. It is a conduit. It doesn't interpose itself. Further, the PC build capabilities and the thematic, archetype-centered powers interact with the combat mechanics to frame the “who”, “why” and “how” of the players considerably well.[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]For my (and my group) sensibilities regarding Skill Challenges as non-combat resolution, there is an implicit “story now” agenda embedded in the tool begging you to take advantage of it. We play under those auspices using the same techniques that other narrative resolution systems make explicit (where the 4e designers seem to have made implicit…possibly purposefully). I don’t feel that we add anything beyond RAW, we just have a refined, collective technique and an understanding of RAI and how to get from “an exercise in dice rolling and arithmetic” (much like combat) to the resolution of an evocative, genre-relevant scene by way of the mechanical framework coupled with our efforts/technique. We’re practiced, experienced and on the same page. And it yields results. Again, the framework assists in the composition of fiction relative to (i) genre tropes we’re attempting to conjure and (ii) the “who”, “why” and “how” of the players considerably well.<O:p[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]Both a meta-game heavy, granular, thematic combat system and a skeletal (yet codified), meta-game heavy framework for non-combat resolution can be turned into “an exercise in dice rolling and arithmetic” or a “jarring, discordant experience” with expectations, agenda, technique and effort that are at odds. <O:p[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]Unrelated (but related to my prior post), Milestones/APs and character theme/story driven rewards (Minor and Major Quest XP) are wonderful at facilitating the same things. Further, if the players are brought into this meta-game (at character creation or between sessions), these two become considerably more coherent (with regards to the DM and players’ understanding of them relative to the characters in play) and thus much more facilitative. <O:p[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]As before, I still feel play examples would have more explanatory power. If anyone feels the same, I would be willing to break down a long-time character and how:[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [COLOR=white][FONT=Arial]- [/FONT][FONT=Arial]PC build rules/powers<O:p</O:p[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=Arial]- [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Meta-game heavy, granular, codified combat<O:p</O:p[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=Arial]- [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Skill Challenges<O:p</O:p[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=white][FONT=Arial]- [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Character <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[IMG]http://www.enworld.org/forum/ /><st1:Street w:st=[/IMG]<st1:address w:st="on">Theme/Story Drive</st1:address></st1:Street> Rewards (Milestones/APs and Minor and Major Quest XP)[/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]Are all extremely conducive (rather than antagonistic) toward bringing this character’s theme and story to life (and incentivizing the player to that end). As I considerate in my mind, it would likely be a long, weighty post so I’d rather not produce the effort for no purpose.<O:p</O:p[/COLOR][/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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