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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6034857" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>But if the situation is a combat one, a range of tactical options permits you to engage it.</p><p></p><p>D&D spellcasters have always had this (assuming they memorise the right sort of spells).</p><p></p><p>Also from making choices.</p><p></p><p>Classic D&D has only limited ways for the player of a non-caster to make choices, from round to round, about risk vs reward.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what sort of "giving up" you have in mind. Do you mean memorising spell A rather than spell B? I personally don't think that gives a lot of investment in a situation.</p><p></p><p>Do you mean "taking option A when you could tak option B instead"? That seems similar to making choices about risk vs reward. 4e supports it, in multiple dimensions (action economy, resource recovery rates, etc)</p><p></p><p>Actually, if that power is a daily or encounter power, or has some other sort of cost (eg in the action economy) it can be quite dramatic. And once the trade offs also involve conferring benefits on other PCs, that intensity can increase.</p><p></p><p>Given that 4e doesn't have Fate Points, decisions about when to use utility buffs, healing powers etc fill the same functional space as the decision about when to use a Fate Point would, in a game that has them.</p><p></p><p>I've been GMing for nearly 30 years, and using maps and tokens for the past 4 (ie since I started GMing 4e). I've got plenty of familiarity with "theatre of the mind" combat. I've also GMed a lot of "continous initiative" (simutaneous declaration and then resolution) Rolemaster.</p><p></p><p>In the end there is no accounting for taste. All I can say is that I don't find the maps+mini aspect of 4e "accounting" rather than fiction. There are episodes that I've probably linked to above (like the beholder fight and the hydra fight described <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">here[/url) that I'm pretty sure I couldn't have run as I did in other systems. And I don't find the forced movement, bonus damage, etc elements of resolution to be mere fiddliness.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">No doubt something very interesting could be done with a skill-challenge style system: looser keywords (like the 4e skill labels, which work something like loose descriptors) would promote creativity and flexibility in combat. But it would be inevitably be more abstract than 4e combat (or Rolemaster or Runequest combat, for that matter), and I'm not sure this is a strict advantage. There is a physicality to combat that I'm not sure a skill challenge would capture. (@Manbearcat has worked harder than I have at running physical skill challenges. They're not really my thing.)</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">Well, "level" in 4e is just a shorthand for a range of expected bonuses. With bounded accuracy it should be mostly unnecessary, though it depends how bounded the accuracy really is.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">If the table I want is in the final rules, good! As for it being trivial to calculate - probably, but there are multiple factors in play in a world of bounded accuracy: typical monster numbers in relationship to monster level, the range of PC bonuses from class, feat, spells, items, etc; and the default setting, which presumably contains only finitely many places/things/events of greater than modest difficulty. I want the game to tell me what sorts of fiction its default rules support that will not be mechancially boring, and to give me the tools to help produce that.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">No, but it helps produce exciting narrative if the game rules are designed with that goal in mind. This is the express logic of systems like Burning Wheel or HeroWars/Quest with a simple/complex contest dichotomy in their resolution mechanics: when you want it to be over quickly, because it's only a minor point in the game, use a simple contest; when you want it to be a big deal, use a complex contest. It's about desinging a mechanical framework that gives players the appropriate points at which to intervene, and the appropriate resources to do so; and about keeping in mind the narrative consequences that will flow from those resolution.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">In those cases in which a D&D combat could be reduced to a %likelihood of the PCs prevailing, not many people would think it would make no difference to play to just substitute a percentile dice roll for the actual process of resolution. That in itself is a recognition that the metagame matters.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">As for achieving exciting narratives - yes, I find that harder with mechanics that get in the way. Simple example: Rolemaster healing mechanics tend to distract from exciting narratives, because they requires spending quite a bit of real time during the play of a session ascertaining the precise severity of PC injuries, working out how long healing of each injury (naturally or via magic) takes, and combining those times into a total recovery time. Furthermore, there are no training or "work for pay" mechanics to be rolled out in such situations that allow the other PCs who are not healing to profitably pass their time in the meanwhile - which marks up the dynamics of party play.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">That doesn't mean that I haven't got exciting narratives out of Rolemaster. Even scry, buff, teleport sometimes produces exciting narratives. But not reliably, because of the emphasis it leads to on time spent planning compared to time spent resolving (especially once SoD comes into the picture).</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">Perhaps (probably, even), and the 4e DMG canvasses this option. In part, though, I'm curious to see how the game plays following the designers' default pacing advice.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">My point was that 3E uses "natural armour" as a figleaf to pretend that there is no metagame. Which only leads to players asking "How can my PC get natural armour that good?" - an approach that breaks the metagame. Whereas 4e is upfront about the presence and function of the metagame.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">My point is that, unless we acknowledge the importance of the metagame, there <em>is no such thing</em> as getting the numbers right. You can't do it just reasoning from ingame considerations alone.</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">I don't follow this. My players just finished a level+5 encounter (level 18 PCs, level 23 encounter). How can they infer from that that the rest of level 18 will be a cakewalk? What if they don't get an extended rest? What if the next encounter is also level+5? Heck, given that only the paladin has any healing surges left, but is all out of Lay on Hands, what if the next encounter is level+1?</a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank"></a></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html" target="_blank">There is a piece of the picture you have in mind that I'm not seeing.</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6034857, member: 42582"] But if the situation is a combat one, a range of tactical options permits you to engage it. D&D spellcasters have always had this (assuming they memorise the right sort of spells). Also from making choices. Classic D&D has only limited ways for the player of a non-caster to make choices, from round to round, about risk vs reward. I'm not sure what sort of "giving up" you have in mind. Do you mean memorising spell A rather than spell B? I personally don't think that gives a lot of investment in a situation. Do you mean "taking option A when you could tak option B instead"? That seems similar to making choices about risk vs reward. 4e supports it, in multiple dimensions (action economy, resource recovery rates, etc) Actually, if that power is a daily or encounter power, or has some other sort of cost (eg in the action economy) it can be quite dramatic. And once the trade offs also involve conferring benefits on other PCs, that intensity can increase. Given that 4e doesn't have Fate Points, decisions about when to use utility buffs, healing powers etc fill the same functional space as the decision about when to use a Fate Point would, in a game that has them. I've been GMing for nearly 30 years, and using maps and tokens for the past 4 (ie since I started GMing 4e). I've got plenty of familiarity with "theatre of the mind" combat. I've also GMed a lot of "continous initiative" (simutaneous declaration and then resolution) Rolemaster. In the end there is no accounting for taste. All I can say is that I don't find the maps+mini aspect of 4e "accounting" rather than fiction. There are episodes that I've probably linked to above (like the beholder fight and the hydra fight described [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/330383-underdark-adventure-demons-beholders-elementals-hydra.html]here[/url) that I'm pretty sure I couldn't have run as I did in other systems. And I don't find the forced movement, bonus damage, etc elements of resolution to be mere fiddliness. No doubt something very interesting could be done with a skill-challenge style system: looser keywords (like the 4e skill labels, which work something like loose descriptors) would promote creativity and flexibility in combat. But it would be inevitably be more abstract than 4e combat (or Rolemaster or Runequest combat, for that matter), and I'm not sure this is a strict advantage. There is a physicality to combat that I'm not sure a skill challenge would capture. (@Manbearcat has worked harder than I have at running physical skill challenges. They're not really my thing.) Well, "level" in 4e is just a shorthand for a range of expected bonuses. With bounded accuracy it should be mostly unnecessary, though it depends how bounded the accuracy really is. If the table I want is in the final rules, good! As for it being trivial to calculate - probably, but there are multiple factors in play in a world of bounded accuracy: typical monster numbers in relationship to monster level, the range of PC bonuses from class, feat, spells, items, etc; and the default setting, which presumably contains only finitely many places/things/events of greater than modest difficulty. I want the game to tell me what sorts of fiction its default rules support that will not be mechancially boring, and to give me the tools to help produce that. No, but it helps produce exciting narrative if the game rules are designed with that goal in mind. This is the express logic of systems like Burning Wheel or HeroWars/Quest with a simple/complex contest dichotomy in their resolution mechanics: when you want it to be over quickly, because it's only a minor point in the game, use a simple contest; when you want it to be a big deal, use a complex contest. It's about desinging a mechanical framework that gives players the appropriate points at which to intervene, and the appropriate resources to do so; and about keeping in mind the narrative consequences that will flow from those resolution. In those cases in which a D&D combat could be reduced to a %likelihood of the PCs prevailing, not many people would think it would make no difference to play to just substitute a percentile dice roll for the actual process of resolution. That in itself is a recognition that the metagame matters. As for achieving exciting narratives - yes, I find that harder with mechanics that get in the way. Simple example: Rolemaster healing mechanics tend to distract from exciting narratives, because they requires spending quite a bit of real time during the play of a session ascertaining the precise severity of PC injuries, working out how long healing of each injury (naturally or via magic) takes, and combining those times into a total recovery time. Furthermore, there are no training or "work for pay" mechanics to be rolled out in such situations that allow the other PCs who are not healing to profitably pass their time in the meanwhile - which marks up the dynamics of party play. That doesn't mean that I haven't got exciting narratives out of Rolemaster. Even scry, buff, teleport sometimes produces exciting narratives. But not reliably, because of the emphasis it leads to on time spent planning compared to time spent resolving (especially once SoD comes into the picture). Perhaps (probably, even), and the 4e DMG canvasses this option. In part, though, I'm curious to see how the game plays following the designers' default pacing advice. My point was that 3E uses "natural armour" as a figleaf to pretend that there is no metagame. Which only leads to players asking "How can my PC get natural armour that good?" - an approach that breaks the metagame. Whereas 4e is upfront about the presence and function of the metagame. My point is that, unless we acknowledge the importance of the metagame, there [I]is no such thing[/I] as getting the numbers right. You can't do it just reasoning from ingame considerations alone. I don't follow this. My players just finished a level+5 encounter (level 18 PCs, level 23 encounter). How can they infer from that that the rest of level 18 will be a cakewalk? What if they don't get an extended rest? What if the next encounter is also level+5? Heck, given that only the paladin has any healing surges left, but is all out of Lay on Hands, what if the next encounter is level+1? There is a piece of the picture you have in mind that I'm not seeing.[/url] [/QUOTE]
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