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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6035350" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>I saw @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/ratskinner.html" target="_blank">Ratskinner</a> 's post in the other thread that you're referring to here. I think it would be very easy to compose an abstract, quick-resolution-driven, TotM compatible combat system for 4e that would map to the Skill Challenge analog. In fact, with a little bit of thought and effort I'm sure one of us could put one together and the rest of us could quality control the product to make it highly functional. It would be a useful tool and would help both standard 4e players and those looking for more symmetry in their resolution systems like Ratskinner. However, as a resolution tool to handle all of combat, I'm certain that the loss of granularity and accompanying detail/flavor in PC build would be a net negative for many (most?) 4e advocates.</p><p></p><p>This actually hits on one of the issues I was referring to upthread (PC build resources and their impact on expressing theme and archetype). First and foremost, I come from the line of thinking (and corresponding playstyle preference) that D&D is a game about warriors (the generic) carving heroic stories out of a vulnerable world's "points of darkness" medium by way of (fantasy/high-fantasy) adventures. Much like the branches of the military, each warrior will have a trade, and accompanying tools/training, that differentiates him considerably from another warrior. To extend it further, he will have his own background/behaviors/skills/training that pre-date his formal military training. If you're telling a story about him "in theatre" or painting a portrait of him, and you want the story to address the specific themes and training inherent to his warrior heritage, there needs to be a decent level of granularity lest he could easily be exchanged out for any other generic warrior (from any other branch or background). A system that provides the tools to do so, will allow you to tell different stories about different warriors and successfully capture their essence. </p><p></p><p>American Football is about the game on Sunday (and all of its in-game drama, depth, position battles, and momentum swings). For the audience/viewer/fan, it is not about the preparation. It is not about the game-planning the opponent during the week, watching film, practicing, rehabilitating injuries or post-game fatigue, managing the waiver wire to fill out an in-flux roster. These things are still very important to the game and they fascinate fans and the ardent ones follow them with vigor...but they do so in a much more shallow, distant way (with an accompanying shallow understanding) that distills the essence of these "non-game" components, allowing them to incorporate that aspect of being a fan into their ritualistic experience. And thus, they make the "NFL Football Game" (what the story of being an American Football fan is about) that they will be watching, and all of the intense granularity within, more impactful and they heighten the experience. </p><p></p><p>One more. I'm not a musician so this one is going to be much more gross. In my understanding of music, its organization is primarily about the composition, granularity and depth of the Melody. The Harmony and the Rhythm assist in the realization of the Melody's composition, granularity and depth. As such, the story of music is primarily about the Melody with the other elements providing color and assisting to heighten the experience and theme of the Melody. I'm terribly sorry to those formally trained if I have erred somewhat there. That is my extremely limited understanding so I may have the terms slightly off or my understanding may be slightly askew. </p><p></p><p>Given what D&D is about IME (the heroic warrior's story), the game is not "about" Skill Challenges or non-combat resolution. Therefore, resolution mechanics that distill these things to their bare essence (training in Acrobatics means that you're dextrous and have these general skillsets...we don't need to extend it to your ranks in back-handsprings, front-handsprings, somersaults, etc) and ad-hoc in-filling where more granularity is wanted or warranted works very naturally (and intuitively). These non-combat scenes will round out a character, his theme and the genre's expectations/conventions, but for the "heroic warrior's story" these components (while extremely necessary) are the coat of paint and trim level rather than the chasis and engine. </p><p></p><p>Regarding coherency and symmetry of tools: When building a house, you need all manner of tools. Some will probably be more front and center than others. The story of "Building a House" is primarily about the hand-saw, the drill, the hammer and the nails. However, you don't just throw out (or transmute) the scraper, the trowel, the brushes because they don't have the same coherency of application within the framework of the "Building a House" story. Their own nuance is necessary to convey/express the composition of the house. To exclude them, or put a hammer/saw in their place, would ultimately setup a failure of the sought end.</p><p></p><p>Wow. I've probably used up my "horrible explanation by way of gross analogies" credits. In fact, I'm sure I'm well into the red.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6035350, member: 6696971"] I saw @[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/ratskinner.html"]Ratskinner[/URL] 's post in the other thread that you're referring to here. I think it would be very easy to compose an abstract, quick-resolution-driven, TotM compatible combat system for 4e that would map to the Skill Challenge analog. In fact, with a little bit of thought and effort I'm sure one of us could put one together and the rest of us could quality control the product to make it highly functional. It would be a useful tool and would help both standard 4e players and those looking for more symmetry in their resolution systems like Ratskinner. However, as a resolution tool to handle all of combat, I'm certain that the loss of granularity and accompanying detail/flavor in PC build would be a net negative for many (most?) 4e advocates. This actually hits on one of the issues I was referring to upthread (PC build resources and their impact on expressing theme and archetype). First and foremost, I come from the line of thinking (and corresponding playstyle preference) that D&D is a game about warriors (the generic) carving heroic stories out of a vulnerable world's "points of darkness" medium by way of (fantasy/high-fantasy) adventures. Much like the branches of the military, each warrior will have a trade, and accompanying tools/training, that differentiates him considerably from another warrior. To extend it further, he will have his own background/behaviors/skills/training that pre-date his formal military training. If you're telling a story about him "in theatre" or painting a portrait of him, and you want the story to address the specific themes and training inherent to his warrior heritage, there needs to be a decent level of granularity lest he could easily be exchanged out for any other generic warrior (from any other branch or background). A system that provides the tools to do so, will allow you to tell different stories about different warriors and successfully capture their essence. American Football is about the game on Sunday (and all of its in-game drama, depth, position battles, and momentum swings). For the audience/viewer/fan, it is not about the preparation. It is not about the game-planning the opponent during the week, watching film, practicing, rehabilitating injuries or post-game fatigue, managing the waiver wire to fill out an in-flux roster. These things are still very important to the game and they fascinate fans and the ardent ones follow them with vigor...but they do so in a much more shallow, distant way (with an accompanying shallow understanding) that distills the essence of these "non-game" components, allowing them to incorporate that aspect of being a fan into their ritualistic experience. And thus, they make the "NFL Football Game" (what the story of being an American Football fan is about) that they will be watching, and all of the intense granularity within, more impactful and they heighten the experience. One more. I'm not a musician so this one is going to be much more gross. In my understanding of music, its organization is primarily about the composition, granularity and depth of the Melody. The Harmony and the Rhythm assist in the realization of the Melody's composition, granularity and depth. As such, the story of music is primarily about the Melody with the other elements providing color and assisting to heighten the experience and theme of the Melody. I'm terribly sorry to those formally trained if I have erred somewhat there. That is my extremely limited understanding so I may have the terms slightly off or my understanding may be slightly askew. Given what D&D is about IME (the heroic warrior's story), the game is not "about" Skill Challenges or non-combat resolution. Therefore, resolution mechanics that distill these things to their bare essence (training in Acrobatics means that you're dextrous and have these general skillsets...we don't need to extend it to your ranks in back-handsprings, front-handsprings, somersaults, etc) and ad-hoc in-filling where more granularity is wanted or warranted works very naturally (and intuitively). These non-combat scenes will round out a character, his theme and the genre's expectations/conventions, but for the "heroic warrior's story" these components (while extremely necessary) are the coat of paint and trim level rather than the chasis and engine. Regarding coherency and symmetry of tools: When building a house, you need all manner of tools. Some will probably be more front and center than others. The story of "Building a House" is primarily about the hand-saw, the drill, the hammer and the nails. However, you don't just throw out (or transmute) the scraper, the trowel, the brushes because they don't have the same coherency of application within the framework of the "Building a House" story. Their own nuance is necessary to convey/express the composition of the house. To exclude them, or put a hammer/saw in their place, would ultimately setup a failure of the sought end. Wow. I've probably used up my "horrible explanation by way of gross analogies" credits. In fact, I'm sure I'm well into the red. [/QUOTE]
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