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Thoughts on 5e skills.
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7147352" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>Generally, in the case of "these skills aren't very useful", I think the problem isn't the skill but in how it's approached in 5e (or sometimes just in D&D in general).</p><p></p><p>While I haven't seen a lot of Performance checks in my games, I can respond about how I handle Animal Handling & Acrobatics, and have found those 2 skills to be plenty useful. There's a few house rules in here, just because I wanted bolster the utility of skills and clarify their use.</p><p></p><p>Animal Handling in my games covers Riding, Reading an Animal's Behavior, Soothing an Animal, and Training an Animal.</p><p></p><p>Acrobatics in my games covers Balancing (PHB), Diving to Mitigate Falling Damage (Homebrew), and Tumbling (DMG).</p><p></p><p>I do think Performance could use some clarification as to how it's used & how it's different from, say, flute proficiency. I also think several tool proficiencies could use clarification. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've found the utility of these skills depends more on the DM creating opportunities for their use. Also, several of these skills have "hidden" uses. For example...</p><p></p><p>Athletics is also used for grappling and can be used for escaping (including from webs), Climbing onto a Bigger Creature (DMG), Overrunning (DMG), and Shoving Aside (DMG).</p><p></p><p>While it's not RAW, I allow Medicine to be used forensically in my games. Players enjoy it.</p><p></p><p>Investigation is also used to see through illusions.</p><p></p><p>Knowledge skills in D&D (and most RPGs I've encountered) all run into the same issue: DM regurgitates information, player turns to other players and says "I tell you guys that" (or not), and nothing is really ventured or risked, there are no stakes. Maybe if they roll a 1 or something, the DM tells the player misinformation with a wink wink nudge nudge, and everyone gets a chuckle, <em>maaaaybe</em> the player riffs off of that and creates an inconvenience for the party. The assumption behind knowledge skills seems to be that even if there's no risk, it's worthwhile rolling to see <em>to what degree you succeed</em> (i.e. how much do you know?). What this does is encourages a Weight of Numbers / Pile-On Rolling approach.</p><p></p><p>Instead, I think Knowledge skills are essentially different than other types of skills, but we've just been using the same system since late 2e or 3e. Knowledge skills IMO are a better fit for something like 5e's backgrounds. They provide a baseline of information at the outset of a quest/adventure, or a resource you can tap when you visit a suitable site during your adventures. There's no roll involved.</p><p></p><p>Now, that's one approach.</p><p></p><p>Another approach is attaching utility to each knowledge skill so the issue I've raised is still there, it's just less of a glaring thing because there are all these other things you can do with Arcana, for instance.</p><p></p><p>For example, Arcana might be used in several ways...</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Decipher symbols (maybe similar to d20's decipher script...heck I've seen official D&D games on Twitch treat Arcana as <em>detect magic</em> even)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magical Lore (magical traditions, magic items, & the planes)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spellcraft (identifying spells & rituals)</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Perception bothers me. Or how it's handled in many of the examples in the PHB & DMG. I know it's a play style thing, and I can do my own thing, but I don't like the style that's become "mainstream" D&D where lots of Perception checks are being called for, often for really stupid stuff. You can see this on the recent Twitch streams. My pet peeve is when a player says <em>"I am going to make a Perception check"</em>, like I'm supposed to read their mind about what their intention is. My other pet peeve is when a DM, replying to a player who has made a Perception check, says something like <em>"You notice the faint outline of a pit trap on the floor before you."</em> Just Ugh. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I actually like how Expertise is limited to Bard and Rogue. It just *feels* right to me, it feels like D&D where those two classes have been the skill monkeys and skill experts. Generally, however, I support D&D as a game with well-defined classes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 7147352, member: 20323"] Generally, in the case of "these skills aren't very useful", I think the problem isn't the skill but in how it's approached in 5e (or sometimes just in D&D in general). While I haven't seen a lot of Performance checks in my games, I can respond about how I handle Animal Handling & Acrobatics, and have found those 2 skills to be plenty useful. There's a few house rules in here, just because I wanted bolster the utility of skills and clarify their use. Animal Handling in my games covers Riding, Reading an Animal's Behavior, Soothing an Animal, and Training an Animal. Acrobatics in my games covers Balancing (PHB), Diving to Mitigate Falling Damage (Homebrew), and Tumbling (DMG). I do think Performance could use some clarification as to how it's used & how it's different from, say, flute proficiency. I also think several tool proficiencies could use clarification. I've found the utility of these skills depends more on the DM creating opportunities for their use. Also, several of these skills have "hidden" uses. For example... Athletics is also used for grappling and can be used for escaping (including from webs), Climbing onto a Bigger Creature (DMG), Overrunning (DMG), and Shoving Aside (DMG). While it's not RAW, I allow Medicine to be used forensically in my games. Players enjoy it. Investigation is also used to see through illusions. Knowledge skills in D&D (and most RPGs I've encountered) all run into the same issue: DM regurgitates information, player turns to other players and says "I tell you guys that" (or not), and nothing is really ventured or risked, there are no stakes. Maybe if they roll a 1 or something, the DM tells the player misinformation with a wink wink nudge nudge, and everyone gets a chuckle, [I]maaaaybe[/I] the player riffs off of that and creates an inconvenience for the party. The assumption behind knowledge skills seems to be that even if there's no risk, it's worthwhile rolling to see [I]to what degree you succeed[/I] (i.e. how much do you know?). What this does is encourages a Weight of Numbers / Pile-On Rolling approach. Instead, I think Knowledge skills are essentially different than other types of skills, but we've just been using the same system since late 2e or 3e. Knowledge skills IMO are a better fit for something like 5e's backgrounds. They provide a baseline of information at the outset of a quest/adventure, or a resource you can tap when you visit a suitable site during your adventures. There's no roll involved. Now, that's one approach. Another approach is attaching utility to each knowledge skill so the issue I've raised is still there, it's just less of a glaring thing because there are all these other things you can do with Arcana, for instance. For example, Arcana might be used in several ways... [list][*]Decipher symbols (maybe similar to d20's decipher script...heck I've seen official D&D games on Twitch treat Arcana as [I]detect magic[/I] even) [*]Magical Lore (magical traditions, magic items, & the planes) [*]Spellcraft (identifying spells & rituals)[/list] Perception bothers me. Or how it's handled in many of the examples in the PHB & DMG. I know it's a play style thing, and I can do my own thing, but I don't like the style that's become "mainstream" D&D where lots of Perception checks are being called for, often for really stupid stuff. You can see this on the recent Twitch streams. My pet peeve is when a player says [I]"I am going to make a Perception check"[/I], like I'm supposed to read their mind about what their intention is. My other pet peeve is when a DM, replying to a player who has made a Perception check, says something like [I]"You notice the faint outline of a pit trap on the floor before you."[/I] Just Ugh. :( I actually like how Expertise is limited to Bard and Rogue. It just *feels* right to me, it feels like D&D where those two classes have been the skill monkeys and skill experts. Generally, however, I support D&D as a game with well-defined classes. [/QUOTE]
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