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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6798656" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I think part of the problem is that players are especially loathe to admit that under most conditions their characters wouldn't be especially ready for action (IE you wouldn't be walking around clad in armor in most cases, or with your weapon right to hand, its just not feasible). DMs are loathe to place their NPCs in similar situations, and clearly allowing for such has many game implications that aren't easy to deal with. 4e in particular, with its completely gamist handling of armor and weapons, presents a host of issues. </p><p></p><p>In 'classic' D&D it was less of an issue. There are various points at which it is at least implied that combat mechanics are inappropriate for non-combat situations. You could easily justify things like demanding an NPC that gets shivved in the back while eating dinner make a save vs death (and the assassin class mechanics provide a similar capability). Admittedly, there isn't really an internally consistent way to handle it either, but 4e's assumptions make it considerably worse.</p><p></p><p>You do have the 'helpless' condition, which allows for bad things to happen when you're unable to act at all, but there's no clear way to invoke it mechanically, aside from a few power effects. Presumably someone that is asleep might be rendered helpless, but there's no really defined process for it. </p><p></p><p>As for the notion of 'reduced to 0 hit points', that does work. However it still doesn't cover all possible situations. I do think though that it covers all the situations where an action hero would REALLY be helpless, as opposed to just needing to pull off some trick.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6798656, member: 82106"] I think part of the problem is that players are especially loathe to admit that under most conditions their characters wouldn't be especially ready for action (IE you wouldn't be walking around clad in armor in most cases, or with your weapon right to hand, its just not feasible). DMs are loathe to place their NPCs in similar situations, and clearly allowing for such has many game implications that aren't easy to deal with. 4e in particular, with its completely gamist handling of armor and weapons, presents a host of issues. In 'classic' D&D it was less of an issue. There are various points at which it is at least implied that combat mechanics are inappropriate for non-combat situations. You could easily justify things like demanding an NPC that gets shivved in the back while eating dinner make a save vs death (and the assassin class mechanics provide a similar capability). Admittedly, there isn't really an internally consistent way to handle it either, but 4e's assumptions make it considerably worse. You do have the 'helpless' condition, which allows for bad things to happen when you're unable to act at all, but there's no clear way to invoke it mechanically, aside from a few power effects. Presumably someone that is asleep might be rendered helpless, but there's no really defined process for it. As for the notion of 'reduced to 0 hit points', that does work. However it still doesn't cover all possible situations. I do think though that it covers all the situations where an action hero would REALLY be helpless, as opposed to just needing to pull off some trick. [/QUOTE]
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