Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="MoutonRustique" data-source="post: 7527451" data-attributes="member: 22362"><p><strong>Making Combats BAD(tm)</strong></p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>Making combat BAD</strong></span></p><p>During the [<em>Mearls again says he dislikes how 4e turned out</em>](tm) thread, a poster asked a question that's been asked a good many time for which there are plenty of answers, and it made me want to give another one. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p><strong>What do you mean "make combat BAD" ?</strong></p><p>Well, in 4e, the resource management game is centered around [Healing Surges]. From a game perspective, this is <em>great</em>. From a story-pacing perspective, it is also <em>great</em>. Where it can fall a bit flat is in terms of instinctual* perception of attrition / consequence.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><strong>*This is actually, anything <em>but</em> instinctual, as it's actually been ingrained by decades of "trad" D&D hit point ablation being taught as the measure of consequence. This is made obvious when discussing these issues with not-mainly-D&D players.</strong></span></p><p></p><p>[sblock="Ramblings and musings"]</p><p>To make combat "BAD" (something to be avoided when possible), there needs to be 2 big things :</p><p>1 - it doesn't offer a desirable reward</p><p>2 - it incurs a non-recoverable loss</p><p></p><p>Now, I know that these settings are on a scale, and there are variable tipping points, and etc, and etc, but let's keep things simple here.</p><p></p><p>Fixing (1) is super-easy, all it takes is changing <strong>XP </strong>to be [<strong>progress based</strong>]. Killing something doesn't grant XP, <em>accomplishing</em> something grants XP.</p><p></p><p>But this has been discussed before, it's super easy, makes more sense in the game world, makes more sense at the table, easier to do, just all around better - so yeah, let's leave that aside.</p><p></p><p>What is often harder is (2).</p><p>Because 4e is usually played by those looking for intense action and unrelenting story progression, the "inventory game" isn't usually something that appeals to most of us. <em>However</em>, it is something that appeals (usually only in <em>theory</em>) to a large subset of D&D players.</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>So here's my idea : </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">magical items are (mechanically) as they are now, but they don't do anything without the power of the "<em>dragon/mana/eldritch/power/awesome-shard</em>"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>shards </em>are "socketable" items (something that takes a few minutes to do)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">a <em>shard</em> is good for 5 activations (combats)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">magical items that are not empowered give a -1 penalty to (main purpose)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">activation is based on intent (doesn't require an action) - but, as a variant, you could say that surprised characters haven't activated them yet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">there are thirty(30) levels of shards with regards to power and cost - with obvious implications</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">once applied, a <em>shard</em> can't be removed without destroying it</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the item costs 1/2 it's minimum value</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>shards</em> cost 1/10 of a level-item*</li> </ul><p></p><p>So there you have it, a resource management element that is very simple to track (with small numbers), but that will still make combat "cost" something without actually having anything to change in the rules (or, not much of it in any case.)</p><p></p><p>[sblock="justification and more ramblings"]</p><p>*The base assumption is that an item will serve for ~25 combat encounters before being replaced (5/level, replaced after 5 levels).</p><p>I think that this system could easily offer an effective increase of ~10-20% to character effective wealth from the more granular approach which offers possibilities of savings here and there, but on the whole, it maps well, it's easy numbers, and I'm not seeing <em>too</em> much abuse being easily done.</p><p></p><p>But I might be missing something...</p><p></p><p>I've started giving <em>most</em> of my foes relevant magical items - but I've built up a system of <em>ritual requirements</em> to access their magic and, also, to maintain their magic. It's really cool, but it requires a huge amount of work as each and every item needs these elements to be defined in the fiction - cool, but <em>so much work...</em></p><p></p><p>This approach will probably do wonders to enable my initial idea without requiring all that work... Yippi for me! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>As a side bonus, this allows for a very easy removal of "magic item shops" if one wanted : the knowledge to make "magical" items is lost and there's no real use for "dragonshards" aside from that. Or an awesome Eberron variant that actually works pretty much as it's already presented (and offers even more incentive for the constant hunt for shards).</p><p></p><p>You could also break these rules to make an item extra-super-awesome-special by not requiring a <em>shard</em></p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>[sblock="I started out with a much more involved system"]</p><p>Idea - add the (object) ressource management game back into 4e</p><p>Goal - make combat a negative prospect as it results in necessary expenditure of ressources</p><p></p><p>Weapons and armour are temporarily enchanted with one-use items to give them the mechanical stats of what would otherwise be permanent magical items.</p><p> - this damages the item and requires repair during a short rest</p><p> - failure to repair weapons or implements imposes a cumulative -1 to attacks and -1 to damage per die penatly</p><p> - failure to repair armour imposes a cumulative -1 penalty to AC and Reflex, a -1 penalty to attacks, as well as a -2 penalty to applicable checks</p><p> - an armour whose penalty is equal to it's AC bonus is damaged beyond what can be repaired in the field</p><p> - a weapon whose damage penalty is equal to half its maximum damage value is damaged beyond what can be repaired in the field</p><p> - OPTION :</p><p> ○ enchantments are carried in the form of X</p><p> ○ weapons need to be built to be able to handle X, doing this is more expensive and generally produces a lesser product</p><p> ○ weapons without the capacity are what most people use</p><p> ○ some items can grant the effects to any weapon - but these are much more expensive than they would otherwise be, and often of lesser effect</p><p></p><p>Suggested damage bonus :</p><p> - Low Heroic +1d6, Upper Heroic +2d6</p><p> - Lower Paragon +2d8, Upper Paragon +3d8</p><p> - Lower Epic +3d12, Upper Epic +4d12</p><p></p><p>OR : +1d6/+1d10/+2d6/+2d8/+2d12/+3d12</p><p></p><p>Damage enchancements can depend on both the item's power and the character's level to allow for much more shallow wealth progression - otherwise, if we wish to use same wealth-by-level guidelines, we can use the base game.</p><p></p><p>Determining the cost for the existing wealth levels :</p><p> - An item is assumed to be replaced after 5 levels</p><p> - There is an assumption of 10 encounters per level</p><p> - There is an assumption of ~5 combat encounters per level</p><p> - The cost is then to be 1/25th of a permanent item</p><p></p><p>My prefered approach :</p><p> - The "en-runing" is usually good for 5 battles</p><p> - The "en-runing" is a simple process that is non-reversable</p><p> - permanent magical weapons, implements and armour also exist</p><p> ○ most offer improvements or modifications when "en-runed"</p><p> ○ some offer "utility" powers</p><p>they are much valued</p><p></p><p><strong>Obviously, this is at "spaghetti on the wall" level of refinement...</strong></p><p>[/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MoutonRustique, post: 7527451, member: 22362"] [b]Making Combats BAD(tm)[/b] [SIZE=3][B]Making combat BAD[/B][/SIZE] During the [[I]Mearls again says he dislikes how 4e turned out[/I]](tm) thread, a poster asked a question that's been asked a good many time for which there are plenty of answers, and it made me want to give another one. :) [B]What do you mean "make combat BAD" ?[/B] Well, in 4e, the resource management game is centered around [Healing Surges]. From a game perspective, this is [I]great[/I]. From a story-pacing perspective, it is also [I]great[/I]. Where it can fall a bit flat is in terms of instinctual* perception of attrition / consequence. [SIZE=1][B]*This is actually, anything [I]but[/I] instinctual, as it's actually been ingrained by decades of "trad" D&D hit point ablation being taught as the measure of consequence. This is made obvious when discussing these issues with not-mainly-D&D players.[/B][/SIZE] [sblock="Ramblings and musings"] To make combat "BAD" (something to be avoided when possible), there needs to be 2 big things : 1 - it doesn't offer a desirable reward 2 - it incurs a non-recoverable loss Now, I know that these settings are on a scale, and there are variable tipping points, and etc, and etc, but let's keep things simple here. Fixing (1) is super-easy, all it takes is changing [B]XP [/B]to be [[B]progress based[/B]]. Killing something doesn't grant XP, [I]accomplishing[/I] something grants XP. But this has been discussed before, it's super easy, makes more sense in the game world, makes more sense at the table, easier to do, just all around better - so yeah, let's leave that aside. What is often harder is (2). Because 4e is usually played by those looking for intense action and unrelenting story progression, the "inventory game" isn't usually something that appeals to most of us. [I]However[/I], it is something that appeals (usually only in [I]theory[/I]) to a large subset of D&D players. [/sblock] So here's my idea : [list] [*]magical items are (mechanically) as they are now, but they don't do anything without the power of the "[I]dragon/mana/eldritch/power/awesome-shard[/I]" [*][I]shards [/I]are "socketable" items (something that takes a few minutes to do) [*]a [I]shard[/I] is good for 5 activations (combats) [*]magical items that are not empowered give a -1 penalty to (main purpose) [*]activation is based on intent (doesn't require an action) - but, as a variant, you could say that surprised characters haven't activated them yet [*]there are thirty(30) levels of shards with regards to power and cost - with obvious implications [*]once applied, a [I]shard[/I] can't be removed without destroying it [*]the item costs 1/2 it's minimum value [*][I]shards[/I] cost 1/10 of a level-item* [/list] So there you have it, a resource management element that is very simple to track (with small numbers), but that will still make combat "cost" something without actually having anything to change in the rules (or, not much of it in any case.) [sblock="justification and more ramblings"] *The base assumption is that an item will serve for ~25 combat encounters before being replaced (5/level, replaced after 5 levels). I think that this system could easily offer an effective increase of ~10-20% to character effective wealth from the more granular approach which offers possibilities of savings here and there, but on the whole, it maps well, it's easy numbers, and I'm not seeing [I]too[/I] much abuse being easily done. But I might be missing something... I've started giving [I]most[/I] of my foes relevant magical items - but I've built up a system of [I]ritual requirements[/I] to access their magic and, also, to maintain their magic. It's really cool, but it requires a huge amount of work as each and every item needs these elements to be defined in the fiction - cool, but [I]so much work...[/I] This approach will probably do wonders to enable my initial idea without requiring all that work... Yippi for me! :) As a side bonus, this allows for a very easy removal of "magic item shops" if one wanted : the knowledge to make "magical" items is lost and there's no real use for "dragonshards" aside from that. Or an awesome Eberron variant that actually works pretty much as it's already presented (and offers even more incentive for the constant hunt for shards). You could also break these rules to make an item extra-super-awesome-special by not requiring a [I]shard[/I] [/sblock] [sblock="I started out with a much more involved system"] Idea - add the (object) ressource management game back into 4e Goal - make combat a negative prospect as it results in necessary expenditure of ressources Weapons and armour are temporarily enchanted with one-use items to give them the mechanical stats of what would otherwise be permanent magical items. - this damages the item and requires repair during a short rest - failure to repair weapons or implements imposes a cumulative -1 to attacks and -1 to damage per die penatly - failure to repair armour imposes a cumulative -1 penalty to AC and Reflex, a -1 penalty to attacks, as well as a -2 penalty to applicable checks - an armour whose penalty is equal to it's AC bonus is damaged beyond what can be repaired in the field - a weapon whose damage penalty is equal to half its maximum damage value is damaged beyond what can be repaired in the field - OPTION : ○ enchantments are carried in the form of X ○ weapons need to be built to be able to handle X, doing this is more expensive and generally produces a lesser product ○ weapons without the capacity are what most people use ○ some items can grant the effects to any weapon - but these are much more expensive than they would otherwise be, and often of lesser effect Suggested damage bonus : - Low Heroic +1d6, Upper Heroic +2d6 - Lower Paragon +2d8, Upper Paragon +3d8 - Lower Epic +3d12, Upper Epic +4d12 OR : +1d6/+1d10/+2d6/+2d8/+2d12/+3d12 Damage enchancements can depend on both the item's power and the character's level to allow for much more shallow wealth progression - otherwise, if we wish to use same wealth-by-level guidelines, we can use the base game. Determining the cost for the existing wealth levels : - An item is assumed to be replaced after 5 levels - There is an assumption of 10 encounters per level - There is an assumption of ~5 combat encounters per level - The cost is then to be 1/25th of a permanent item My prefered approach : - The "en-runing" is usually good for 5 battles - The "en-runing" is a simple process that is non-reversable - permanent magical weapons, implements and armour also exist ○ most offer improvements or modifications when "en-runed" ○ some offer "utility" powers they are much valued [B]Obviously, this is at "spaghetti on the wall" level of refinement...[/B] [/sblock] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)
Top