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Tier list for PF classes, or summary of each?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5703243" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>Neither of you have a good foundation for your argument. I've played <em>Pathfinder</em> at all levels, it's a well-designed game.</p><p></p><p>You sound like folks with almost no experience with high level play. I can only gather that this is by choice as high level play reaches a level of power you don't enjoy or choose to parcitipate in because it does reach absurd levels and needs a great amount of prepartation.</p><p></p><p>But it is playable. And is fun for many people.</p><p></p><p>And the whole melee/caster disparity does not exist unless two things occur that almost never happen:</p><p></p><p>1. You are fighting each other.</p><p></p><p>2. The caster has time to prepare for that melee in particular.</p><p></p><p>Melees are nasty now. Very friggin nasty. The fact that both you and <strong>Stream of the Sky</strong> discount the power of an archer indicates to me you haven't had much experience with them at high level. They win initiative, any caster they fight might as well say goodbye unless he has a prepared a <em>contingency</em> to deal with it.</p><p></p><p>Same with many physical damage dealers. They are beasts to deal with. I have a much harder time coming up with enemies to deal with them than I do with casters. Casters often deal with enemies that are outright immune or completely negate what they're doing. Wheras nothing negates physical damage and physical damage dealers deal even more physical damage than they used to.</p><p></p><p>I see now why you both post mostly on this board. Your arguments against <em>Pathfinder</em> are so easily dissected and shown to be false by experienced <em>Pathfinder</em> gamers that most only participate in the discussion for their own amusement.</p><p></p><p>Neither you nor <strong>Stream of the Sky</strong> are making cogent arguments based on the game system, your arguments are solely based on your personal preferences which you want to impose on the rest of us. Which is why you both probably write house rules.</p><p></p><p>I'm ok with that. I write house rules as well. And in our campaigns the rogue is like the monk must be in both your campaigns. No one plays them. They have shown to be weak in actual play over and over again. Whereas the monk is a gigantic pain to deal with because the one guy that likes monks makes bad to the bone monks. I can only gather than you two play with players that don't spend the time to make a monk worth a darn or are following the 15 to 20 point buy system to the letter.</p><p></p><p>Until you grasp that the advantage of <em>Pathfinder</em> is system flexibility as in the game fits many different styles even though it is written one way, I can't consider your arguments as valid in any way. Style arguments shouldn't exist for a game system. You want a particular style, then modify the system to obtain it as you are both doing. Don't waste your time acting as though your viewpoint is somehow "how it should be". It isn't how it is should be. It's merely your preference and yours differs from mine.</p><p></p><p>In my experience, which is just as valid and real as either yours or <strong>Stream of the Sky</strong>'s, monks rip it up. Monks have not had any trouble whatsoever being powerful contributors in a party in <em>Pathfinder</em>, and are even more dangerous with the addition of the <em>Ultimate Combat</em>. Your experience differs. So be it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 5703243, member: 5834"] Neither of you have a good foundation for your argument. I've played [i]Pathfinder[/i] at all levels, it's a well-designed game. You sound like folks with almost no experience with high level play. I can only gather that this is by choice as high level play reaches a level of power you don't enjoy or choose to parcitipate in because it does reach absurd levels and needs a great amount of prepartation. But it is playable. And is fun for many people. And the whole melee/caster disparity does not exist unless two things occur that almost never happen: 1. You are fighting each other. 2. The caster has time to prepare for that melee in particular. Melees are nasty now. Very friggin nasty. The fact that both you and [b]Stream of the Sky[/b] discount the power of an archer indicates to me you haven't had much experience with them at high level. They win initiative, any caster they fight might as well say goodbye unless he has a prepared a [i]contingency[/i] to deal with it. Same with many physical damage dealers. They are beasts to deal with. I have a much harder time coming up with enemies to deal with them than I do with casters. Casters often deal with enemies that are outright immune or completely negate what they're doing. Wheras nothing negates physical damage and physical damage dealers deal even more physical damage than they used to. I see now why you both post mostly on this board. Your arguments against [i]Pathfinder[/i] are so easily dissected and shown to be false by experienced [i]Pathfinder[/i] gamers that most only participate in the discussion for their own amusement. Neither you nor [b]Stream of the Sky[/b] are making cogent arguments based on the game system, your arguments are solely based on your personal preferences which you want to impose on the rest of us. Which is why you both probably write house rules. I'm ok with that. I write house rules as well. And in our campaigns the rogue is like the monk must be in both your campaigns. No one plays them. They have shown to be weak in actual play over and over again. Whereas the monk is a gigantic pain to deal with because the one guy that likes monks makes bad to the bone monks. I can only gather than you two play with players that don't spend the time to make a monk worth a darn or are following the 15 to 20 point buy system to the letter. Until you grasp that the advantage of [i]Pathfinder[/i] is system flexibility as in the game fits many different styles even though it is written one way, I can't consider your arguments as valid in any way. Style arguments shouldn't exist for a game system. You want a particular style, then modify the system to obtain it as you are both doing. Don't waste your time acting as though your viewpoint is somehow "how it should be". It isn't how it is should be. It's merely your preference and yours differs from mine. In my experience, which is just as valid and real as either yours or [b]Stream of the Sky[/b]'s, monks rip it up. Monks have not had any trouble whatsoever being powerful contributors in a party in [i]Pathfinder[/i], and are even more dangerous with the addition of the [i]Ultimate Combat[/i]. Your experience differs. So be it. [/QUOTE]
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