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General Tabletop Discussion
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Tiers - The Other Kind of Tiers
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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7567859" data-attributes="member: 6795602"><p>I seem to recall that even in 3.5e the path of DPR power single target or multi target was being a full caster. In 5e non-full casters tend to dominate the single target DPR domain. A large portion of this is due to feats, but not only by feats. Full Casters tend to dominate the multi target domain. I think this is a very important distinction when talking about 5e balance. They have given non-full casters a DPR role that full casters struggle to fulfill as well as other party members and that directly correlates to them feeling more balanced.</p><p></p><p>That said, when you look at a rough expectation of the amount of daily damage the non-full caster can put out at various levels without feats or multiclassing, (following the 2 short rests per day whiteroom) there's a remarkable thing that happens. Nearly every class is much more closely distributed in daily damage output than you would have ever excepted to happen. It's almost like this was planned. Full casters are a little more "all over the place" when it comes to daily damage output and are also highly dependent on the number of enemies per encounter remaining higher to match the martial damage output. </p><p></p><p>Of course all their carefully preplanned balance falls apart when you play in a 0-1 short rest 2-3 encounter per day game (which in my experience is more common). That's also going to impact the power level of certain classes, but it really doesn't change the versatility rankings any.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Versatility no longer allows full casters to simply exchange spells for equal or better single target damage than the non-casters can put out.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Kind of, but the total number of spell slots have decreased drastically. So while each slot is more versatile you have a lot less slots compared to earlier editions. 5e gave full casters a few goodies like neo-Vancian casting but they removed/modified a lot of the more powerful spells. They added in concentration on most every non-damage spell and limited you to a single concentration spell. A lot of spells require ongoing saves to continue the effect as opposed to the single fail and forget method 3.5e typically used. All in all I view this as a net-decrease in versatility of full casters when compared with 3.5e. However, full casters are still by far the most versatile of 5e.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's my point. But if you are putting them into tiers based on power, quantifying the impact the monks stun has on encounters so that you can compare it to the CE SS BattleMaster is nearly impossible to objectively do.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 7567859, member: 6795602"] I seem to recall that even in 3.5e the path of DPR power single target or multi target was being a full caster. In 5e non-full casters tend to dominate the single target DPR domain. A large portion of this is due to feats, but not only by feats. Full Casters tend to dominate the multi target domain. I think this is a very important distinction when talking about 5e balance. They have given non-full casters a DPR role that full casters struggle to fulfill as well as other party members and that directly correlates to them feeling more balanced. That said, when you look at a rough expectation of the amount of daily damage the non-full caster can put out at various levels without feats or multiclassing, (following the 2 short rests per day whiteroom) there's a remarkable thing that happens. Nearly every class is much more closely distributed in daily damage output than you would have ever excepted to happen. It's almost like this was planned. Full casters are a little more "all over the place" when it comes to daily damage output and are also highly dependent on the number of enemies per encounter remaining higher to match the martial damage output. Of course all their carefully preplanned balance falls apart when you play in a 0-1 short rest 2-3 encounter per day game (which in my experience is more common). That's also going to impact the power level of certain classes, but it really doesn't change the versatility rankings any. Versatility no longer allows full casters to simply exchange spells for equal or better single target damage than the non-casters can put out. Kind of, but the total number of spell slots have decreased drastically. So while each slot is more versatile you have a lot less slots compared to earlier editions. 5e gave full casters a few goodies like neo-Vancian casting but they removed/modified a lot of the more powerful spells. They added in concentration on most every non-damage spell and limited you to a single concentration spell. A lot of spells require ongoing saves to continue the effect as opposed to the single fail and forget method 3.5e typically used. All in all I view this as a net-decrease in versatility of full casters when compared with 3.5e. However, full casters are still by far the most versatile of 5e. That's my point. But if you are putting them into tiers based on power, quantifying the impact the monks stun has on encounters so that you can compare it to the CE SS BattleMaster is nearly impossible to objectively do. [/QUOTE]
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