Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Time to bring back the prose?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="kevtar" data-source="post: 5898670" data-attributes="member: 27098"><p>I'm looking at the examples you provided and I've copied one of them below. I've colored the "fluff" yellow and the "crunch" red. I've left out the really "technical info" (e.g. casting time, duration, etc) - they read like this:</p><p></p><p><strong>3e sleep</strong> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Yellow">A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures</span>. <span style="color: Red">Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. </span></p><p><span style="color: Red"></span></p><p><span style="color: Red">Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action).</span></p><p><span style="color: Red"></span></p><p><span style="color: Red">Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.</span></p><p><span style="color: Red"></span></p><p></p><p>Material Component</p><p><span style="color: Yellow">A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket. </span></p><p></p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p><strong>4e sleep</strong> </p><p><span style="color: Yellow">You exert your will against your foes, seeking to overwhelm them with a tide of magical weariness.</span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">Hit: The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends).</span></p><p><span style="color: Red">Miss: The target is slowed (save ends). </span></p><p></p><p>It seems to me, that in this instance at least, 3e has more "rules language," but that rules language is not simply technical information (It doesn't exist solely as a "stat block") and less instances of discrete "fluff" (or prose, or whatever we call it). The 4e example seems very concise - nearly bordering terse (in my opinion). With the effects of the spell written in more technical terms (which is comprised of 4e specific jargon such as keywords, etc...) So, I'm wondering if it's not so much "prose" vs. "technical," but rather it's about representation and engagement.</p><p></p><p>I'm not arguing the language of one edition over another, but perhaps what is important is the "discourse" of the game. This involves written rules, jargon, the language of the game as it is played, the language used to describe how the game is played - essentially all linguistic elements that represent D&D and orient our understanding of what "D&D" is (like how a glass [the discourse] shapes water [our understanding of the game]). This needs to match player expectations, or at least is engaging/compelling enough that players can allow their expectations to be changed.</p><p></p><p>But, in any case, the representation (discourse) of D&D must be such that it is engaging - and that didn't seem to happen with a number of people when 4e arrived, because much of the traditional discourse of D&D changed. I'm not saying 4e <em>isn't</em> D&D, but just that the discourse changed, and that change disoriented some players.</p><p></p><p>So, perhaps a task of 5e is to also reconstruct the discourse of D&D so that it reorients people to a more unified (or acceptable) representation of D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="kevtar, post: 5898670, member: 27098"] I'm looking at the examples you provided and I've copied one of them below. I've colored the "fluff" yellow and the "crunch" red. I've left out the really "technical info" (e.g. casting time, duration, etc) - they read like this: [B]3e sleep[/B] [COLOR="Yellow"]A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures[/COLOR]. [COLOR="Red"]Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures. [/COLOR] Material Component [COLOR="Yellow"]A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket. [/COLOR] ---------------------------------------------------------------- [B]4e sleep[/B] [COLOR="Yellow"]You exert your will against your foes, seeking to overwhelm them with a tide of magical weariness.[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]Hit: The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends). Miss: The target is slowed (save ends). [/COLOR] It seems to me, that in this instance at least, 3e has more "rules language," but that rules language is not simply technical information (It doesn't exist solely as a "stat block") and less instances of discrete "fluff" (or prose, or whatever we call it). The 4e example seems very concise - nearly bordering terse (in my opinion). With the effects of the spell written in more technical terms (which is comprised of 4e specific jargon such as keywords, etc...) So, I'm wondering if it's not so much "prose" vs. "technical," but rather it's about representation and engagement. I'm not arguing the language of one edition over another, but perhaps what is important is the "discourse" of the game. This involves written rules, jargon, the language of the game as it is played, the language used to describe how the game is played - essentially all linguistic elements that represent D&D and orient our understanding of what "D&D" is (like how a glass [the discourse] shapes water [our understanding of the game]). This needs to match player expectations, or at least is engaging/compelling enough that players can allow their expectations to be changed. But, in any case, the representation (discourse) of D&D must be such that it is engaging - and that didn't seem to happen with a number of people when 4e arrived, because much of the traditional discourse of D&D changed. I'm not saying 4e [I]isn't[/I] D&D, but just that the discourse changed, and that change disoriented some players. So, perhaps a task of 5e is to also reconstruct the discourse of D&D so that it reorients people to a more unified (or acceptable) representation of D&D. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Time to bring back the prose?
Top