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Time to bring back the prose?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5898928" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>In 4e, that element of GM judgement is located in page 42, and in a couple of opaque suggestions (mostly but not entirely around skill challenges):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>PHB p 259</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Noncombat encounters focus on skills, utility powers, and your own wits (not your character’s), although sometimes attack powers can come in handy as well. . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">In a skill challenge, your goal is to accumulate a certain number of successful skill checks before rolling too many failures. Powers you use might give you bonuses on your checks, make some checks unnecessary, or otherwise help you through the challenge. . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Chapter 5 describes the sorts of things you can attempt with your skills in a skill challenge. You can use a wide variety of skills, from Acrobatics and Athletics to Nature and Stealth. You might also use combat powers and ability checks.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>DMG p27</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Since PC abilities can sometimes hinge on a game state, condition, or effect that affects their opponent, make it clear to the players how their enemies are doing. Be descriptive, considering the source of the condition, but also be explicit.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">For example, . . . <em>f a creature is dazed due to a fear-inducing power, you could say, “Its eyes bulge wide, and it starts to shake. It’s dazed.”</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em><u>DMG p 44</u></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>At your option, you can allow a power that pushes the target more than 1 square to carry the target over hindering terrain in the way. You might imagine a titan with push 3 knocking a character clear over a pit to land in a heap on the other side.</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Some powers specifically have this effect, and it’s probably not a good idea to extend it to others. Rely on how you imagine the power working in the world. If you see the blow lifting a creature off the ground, particularly if it leaves him or her prone at the end of the push, you can decide that the power throws the target over hindering terrain along the way.</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em><u>DMG p 86</u></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>When a player suggests a plausible countermeasure for a trap, even if that possibility isn’t included in the trap’s presentation, figure out the best way to resolve that using the rules: a skill check or ability check against an appropriate DC, an attack, or the use of a power.</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em><u>DMG 2 p 86</u></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Characters can use powers and sometimes rituals in the midst of a skill challenge . . .</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>A good rules of thumb is to treat these other optins as if they were secondary skills in the challenge. . .</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Some categories of actions, though, are significant enough to earn an automatic success in the challenge. A character who . . . uses a daily power deserves to notch at least 1 success toward the party's goal.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>There is the idea here that powers can be used in skill challenges, and to deal with traps, in ways that aren't contemplated in the technical rules description. And there is also the idea that, both in description ("eyes bulging wide from fear") and adjudication (being hit over a pit by a giant) fictional positioning matters. And presumably these ideas are meant to be combined, so that the <em>way</em> you use a power in a skill challenge or to deal with a trap in a way that goes beyond the technical rules description is by drawing on the fictional positioning that use of the power establishes.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>In my own game, a recent example of that was when the PCs needed a password and didn't have it. The wizard had just recently learned a 15th level daily from Heroes of the Feywild, Charm of the Dark Dream, which (i) dominates the target and (ii) removes the caster from play. Obviously, in the fiction this is full-on possession as the caster literally inhabits the mind and body of the target. And so the PC used this to possess an NPC and try to extract the password from his mind. (I required an Arcana check, which failed - so no password was extracted, but I was able to introduce some other interesting information.)</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>I've certainly got no objection to a game which does a better job of talking about how this stuff is to be done than 4e. But I don't just want to go back to descriptions that are open-ended and encourage players to build up a head of steam, and then give no advice to the GM except to keep a lid on things without being too adversarial. One thing that I think 4e did well was to set up a somewhat systematic mechanic for this: skill checks at set DCs, plus the success/fail format of a skill challenge to put an overall framing constraint on how much can be achieved, or how much go wrong, from a single creative casting choice.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5898928, member: 42582"] In 4e, that element of GM judgement is located in page 42, and in a couple of opaque suggestions (mostly but not entirely around skill challenges): [indent][U]PHB p 259[/U] Noncombat encounters focus on skills, utility powers, and your own wits (not your character’s), although sometimes attack powers can come in handy as well. . . In a skill challenge, your goal is to accumulate a certain number of successful skill checks before rolling too many failures. Powers you use might give you bonuses on your checks, make some checks unnecessary, or otherwise help you through the challenge. . . Chapter 5 describes the sorts of things you can attempt with your skills in a skill challenge. You can use a wide variety of skills, from Acrobatics and Athletics to Nature and Stealth. You might also use combat powers and ability checks. [U]DMG p27[/U] Since PC abilities can sometimes hinge on a game state, condition, or effect that affects their opponent, make it clear to the players how their enemies are doing. Be descriptive, considering the source of the condition, but also be explicit. For example, . . . [i]f a creature is dazed due to a fear-inducing power, you could say, “Its eyes bulge wide, and it starts to shake. It’s dazed.” [U]DMG p 44[/U] At your option, you can allow a power that pushes the target more than 1 square to carry the target over hindering terrain in the way. You might imagine a titan with push 3 knocking a character clear over a pit to land in a heap on the other side. Some powers specifically have this effect, and it’s probably not a good idea to extend it to others. Rely on how you imagine the power working in the world. If you see the blow lifting a creature off the ground, particularly if it leaves him or her prone at the end of the push, you can decide that the power throws the target over hindering terrain along the way. [U]DMG p 86[/U] When a player suggests a plausible countermeasure for a trap, even if that possibility isn’t included in the trap’s presentation, figure out the best way to resolve that using the rules: a skill check or ability check against an appropriate DC, an attack, or the use of a power. [U]DMG 2 p 86[/U] Characters can use powers and sometimes rituals in the midst of a skill challenge . . . A good rules of thumb is to treat these other optins as if they were secondary skills in the challenge. . . Some categories of actions, though, are significant enough to earn an automatic success in the challenge. A character who . . . uses a daily power deserves to notch at least 1 success toward the party's goal.[/i][/indent][i] There is the idea here that powers can be used in skill challenges, and to deal with traps, in ways that aren't contemplated in the technical rules description. And there is also the idea that, both in description ("eyes bulging wide from fear") and adjudication (being hit over a pit by a giant) fictional positioning matters. And presumably these ideas are meant to be combined, so that the [I]way[/I] you use a power in a skill challenge or to deal with a trap in a way that goes beyond the technical rules description is by drawing on the fictional positioning that use of the power establishes. In my own game, a recent example of that was when the PCs needed a password and didn't have it. The wizard had just recently learned a 15th level daily from Heroes of the Feywild, Charm of the Dark Dream, which (i) dominates the target and (ii) removes the caster from play. Obviously, in the fiction this is full-on possession as the caster literally inhabits the mind and body of the target. And so the PC used this to possess an NPC and try to extract the password from his mind. (I required an Arcana check, which failed - so no password was extracted, but I was able to introduce some other interesting information.) I've certainly got no objection to a game which does a better job of talking about how this stuff is to be done than 4e. But I don't just want to go back to descriptions that are open-ended and encourage players to build up a head of steam, and then give no advice to the GM except to keep a lid on things without being too adversarial. One thing that I think 4e did well was to set up a somewhat systematic mechanic for this: skill checks at set DCs, plus the success/fail format of a skill challenge to put an overall framing constraint on how much can be achieved, or how much go wrong, from a single creative casting choice.[/i] [/QUOTE]
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