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ToB Ninja, stereotypes and all!
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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4275199" data-attributes="member: 35909"><p>Thanks for responding!</p><p></p><p>What's missing?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I decided to focus on the sneaking and scouting aspect, and not the social skills to not step on the Rogue's toes. The Scout class also has no charisma skills. The skill I'm most thinking of adding is Gather Information, actually. I just don't see a Ninja bluffing. Who's gonna believe a guy dressed all in black with a face mask? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p>It's worse than slightly fewer, I gave them Warblade maneuver and stance progression (with second stance acquisition level "fixed"), which means exactly HALF the maneuvers a Swordsage gets. And I find their recovery as unforgiving as any of the adepts except Swordsages. Warblades get to do any attack action they want + swift for all; Crusaders spend no actions and get it all back. The running requirement at least means they're removing themselves from combat for a round. And with Adaptive Style as an option (one round, no swift action, get all maneuvers back AND swap readied if you like), it didn't seem like a big deal. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Desert Wind is also the discipline of speediness and acrobatics. Many of its maneuvers fit well with a Ninja, and while fire may be bad for sneaking, it helps to eliminate foes quickly, and perhaps start a fire to distract people as you make your getaway at the other end of the castle. The swordsage may have no exclusive disciplines with Ninja around, but it's still the unparalled master of maneuvers, no one comes close to the amount they get. Perhaps this wouldn't be so bad if there were other classes also overlapping with the standard adepts? In my houserules, I improved the Fighter, and made two variants. All get SD, IH, and SS, as I consider those the most fundamental styles, but from there, the standard Fighter and two variant "kits" -- Gladiator and Court Champion -- each sort of resemble the three ToB classes.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly! Ninjas were great free runners and messengers, and they can basically tear up the dirt roads out of combat. In combat, they switch between lightning-fast striker, darting in and out of the shadows, and occasionally boosting themselves to bring a more focused assault. As for balance, it's not until level 5 that it surpasses the monk's (always active) speed, which ties at level 6 again, and even by level 20, is only +30 ft better. Yes, the Ninja can run really fast, but how does that make them more deadly, exactly? Of course, it makes maneuvers like Ring of Fire, Desert Tempest, and Tornado Throw better, but that kind of synergy was intended. As for Stealth Dash, it's a level 20 capstone power, by then many foes will likely have ways to offset its benefits. It may be stronger than Stance Mastery or Dual Boost, but this class's basic framework (HD, saves, BAB, maneuvers, etc...) is weaker than those class's, too. It's just a reward for sticking with the class.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's...a level 19 ability... Any caster should have ways to deal with silence by then, else they'd have not made it so far. Silent Spell is a +1 adjustment and a cheap rod. Bards...well, they can still play instuments. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p>I thought it might be too much, too, but my friend actually said it was fien and that it should have shaken even on a success. One thing to keep in mind is that a level 4 TC boost, Fountain of Blood, lets youdo basically this same thing as a swift action after downing an enemy with any attack, except it lasts a minute and leaves them shaken (no effect on a save). I'm definitely not settled on this one being balanced, though. On the one hand, casters can do much worse by this level and alot of enemies will be fear immune, on the other...it stacks very well with itself.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup, you sure can't crit those things. Find Pressure Point doesn't let you do that, just Sudden Strike them. Now, I've never understood how you can deal precision damage to incorporeal things w/o a ghost touch weapon, but that hasn't stopped WotC from printing a multitude of class feature variants, feats, and spells to do just that. Corporeal creatures make more sense. There are Rogue class features to deal half SA dice to undead ("Death's Ruin"?), a feat to let a Ranger/Scout skirmish favored enemies, even if immune to crits (Swift Hunter), spells to SA anything (Vinestrike, Gravestrike, the...construct one whose name I forgot), and so on. It may upset your sensibilities, but there is fairly strong precedent to allow for ways to tell SA-immune creatures to shut up and sit down.</p><p></p><p>For comparison sake, the Ninja is worse than Swordsage in the following: HD, saves, class disciplines, maneuvers known/readied, stances, armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, Discipline Focus (no choice of discpline), no evasion or improved evasion (maay add as Ninjutsu focus choices). some class features are straight swaps, like Sense Magic roughly = Poison Use. The Ninja's class features are obviously going to be significantly above the swordsage's, given all these detractions. And since every Swordsage grabs Adaptive Style anyway, the maneuver recovery difference isn't a major one to me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 4275199, member: 35909"] Thanks for responding! What's missing? I decided to focus on the sneaking and scouting aspect, and not the social skills to not step on the Rogue's toes. The Scout class also has no charisma skills. The skill I'm most thinking of adding is Gather Information, actually. I just don't see a Ninja bluffing. Who's gonna believe a guy dressed all in black with a face mask? :) It's worse than slightly fewer, I gave them Warblade maneuver and stance progression (with second stance acquisition level "fixed"), which means exactly HALF the maneuvers a Swordsage gets. And I find their recovery as unforgiving as any of the adepts except Swordsages. Warblades get to do any attack action they want + swift for all; Crusaders spend no actions and get it all back. The running requirement at least means they're removing themselves from combat for a round. And with Adaptive Style as an option (one round, no swift action, get all maneuvers back AND swap readied if you like), it didn't seem like a big deal. Desert Wind is also the discipline of speediness and acrobatics. Many of its maneuvers fit well with a Ninja, and while fire may be bad for sneaking, it helps to eliminate foes quickly, and perhaps start a fire to distract people as you make your getaway at the other end of the castle. The swordsage may have no exclusive disciplines with Ninja around, but it's still the unparalled master of maneuvers, no one comes close to the amount they get. Perhaps this wouldn't be so bad if there were other classes also overlapping with the standard adepts? In my houserules, I improved the Fighter, and made two variants. All get SD, IH, and SS, as I consider those the most fundamental styles, but from there, the standard Fighter and two variant "kits" -- Gladiator and Court Champion -- each sort of resemble the three ToB classes. Exactly! Ninjas were great free runners and messengers, and they can basically tear up the dirt roads out of combat. In combat, they switch between lightning-fast striker, darting in and out of the shadows, and occasionally boosting themselves to bring a more focused assault. As for balance, it's not until level 5 that it surpasses the monk's (always active) speed, which ties at level 6 again, and even by level 20, is only +30 ft better. Yes, the Ninja can run really fast, but how does that make them more deadly, exactly? Of course, it makes maneuvers like Ring of Fire, Desert Tempest, and Tornado Throw better, but that kind of synergy was intended. As for Stealth Dash, it's a level 20 capstone power, by then many foes will likely have ways to offset its benefits. It may be stronger than Stance Mastery or Dual Boost, but this class's basic framework (HD, saves, BAB, maneuvers, etc...) is weaker than those class's, too. It's just a reward for sticking with the class. It's...a level 19 ability... Any caster should have ways to deal with silence by then, else they'd have not made it so far. Silent Spell is a +1 adjustment and a cheap rod. Bards...well, they can still play instuments. :) I thought it might be too much, too, but my friend actually said it was fien and that it should have shaken even on a success. One thing to keep in mind is that a level 4 TC boost, Fountain of Blood, lets youdo basically this same thing as a swift action after downing an enemy with any attack, except it lasts a minute and leaves them shaken (no effect on a save). I'm definitely not settled on this one being balanced, though. On the one hand, casters can do much worse by this level and alot of enemies will be fear immune, on the other...it stacks very well with itself. Yup, you sure can't crit those things. Find Pressure Point doesn't let you do that, just Sudden Strike them. Now, I've never understood how you can deal precision damage to incorporeal things w/o a ghost touch weapon, but that hasn't stopped WotC from printing a multitude of class feature variants, feats, and spells to do just that. Corporeal creatures make more sense. There are Rogue class features to deal half SA dice to undead ("Death's Ruin"?), a feat to let a Ranger/Scout skirmish favored enemies, even if immune to crits (Swift Hunter), spells to SA anything (Vinestrike, Gravestrike, the...construct one whose name I forgot), and so on. It may upset your sensibilities, but there is fairly strong precedent to allow for ways to tell SA-immune creatures to shut up and sit down. For comparison sake, the Ninja is worse than Swordsage in the following: HD, saves, class disciplines, maneuvers known/readied, stances, armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, Discipline Focus (no choice of discpline), no evasion or improved evasion (maay add as Ninjutsu focus choices). some class features are straight swaps, like Sense Magic roughly = Poison Use. The Ninja's class features are obviously going to be significantly above the swordsage's, given all these detractions. And since every Swordsage grabs Adaptive Style anyway, the maneuver recovery difference isn't a major one to me. [/QUOTE]
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