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ToB Ninja, stereotypes and all!
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<blockquote data-quote="Arkhandus" data-source="post: 4276672" data-attributes="member: 13966"><p>Uh, it's only one of the most historically important parts of being a ninja. Infiltrating a lord's castle or other place by impersonating the peasant staff, memorizing guard patterns and the target's routines, then striking at the perfect time. You gave them Disguise, why not Bluff? Bluff is what you actually use to deceive people into thinking you're who you're dressed up to look like.</p><p></p><p>Not to mention that Bluff is for feinting in combat, and ninjas did tricks like that all the frickin' time. Half of their weapons were made to be whipped out in a moment as surprise attacks, catching samurai/yojimbo off-guard. Gather Information? Pah. Ninjas gather their info by being sneaky bastages and spying on people.</p><p></p><p></p><p>They get about half as many known, but slightly more than half as many per day, and they still recover about 3-7 times as many maneuvers in one action than a Swordsage does. And they get to move around while they do it, whereas the Swordsage has to stay parked in one spot (maybe shuffle 5 feet in one direction) while recovering maneuvers, as the enemies move around or continue to full-attack his bum arse.</p><p></p><p>Warblades and Crusaders get too generous a recovery mechanic, yes. But Crusaders have randomized maneuver granting and a very narrow selection of maneuvers, while Warblades still have to expend a Swift action to recover maneuvers. The ninja just repositions himself and gets the benefit of super-speed or other such things at the same time, or could initiate a counter on the previous round without problem (a swordsage could as well, but the swordsage has a slow-arse recovery).</p><p></p><p>As it is, the ninja has almost no use for Adaptive Style, like the Warblade and Crusader who have little use for it. Sure, it'd be helpful on rare occasions, but they don't know very many maneuvers beyond the ones they got readied.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are also about speed to some extent; especially DM. Sure, DW is ever so slightly more speed-oriented, with one or two more maneuvers related to it in some way. That doesn't mean it's totally appropriate for a ninja. If they want to kill stuff faster, that's what Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw and Sudden Strike stuff is for, without all the flashy "I'm RIGHT HERE, freakin' ninja assassin RIGHT HERE, everyone! I'm in ur castle killin ur lord!" Desert Wind stuff. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p>If the ninja wants a few of the speedy-not-flashy DW maneuvers, he/she can take Martial Study like everyone else. Though there's not much to take. Flashing Sun, Desert Tempest or whatever, and something else to meet the prerequisites for those first, I guess.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The ninja's Speed Burst is also always-active for nearly all intents and purposes. And it isn't much of a burst if it's constant. It helps them maneuver in combat to reach better positions or chase down mounted targets. I'm just saying that I don't think they really need to be super marathon runners in addition to great sprinters. Considering that they're a bit overpowered as-is.</p><p></p><p>Stealth Dash is far better than Dual Boost (the Swordsage is the closest martial adept to the ninja, so it's really the only one it should be closely compared to) and even moreso with the fact that Speed Burst is effectively constant (the occasional round of changing stances or using a boost/counter still leaves it active on most rounds). And how would anyone negate it? True Seeing sees through Blur and Displacement, not Stealth Dash. SD would have to say that it counts as a Displacement effect in order for True Seeing or similar abilities to get around it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh? Does every caster have a plethora of weaker spells prepared in their slots with Silent Spell on the off chance someone hits them with a Silence, when he/she would probably be expecting either a Ring of Counterspelling or the party's cleric with one Stilled Dispel Magic to take care of it? You're not really specific about how this Silence effect works. So I dunno if dispelling or suchlike would take it out. Metamagic rods aren't something I'd generally allow, not at the prices and abilities they have in the books, but then some DMs just allow anything ever printed without even considering how broken it might be.</p><p></p><p>Still, yes, many casters will have some way of getting around Silence, but much of it depends on how your Silence effect works, like whether or not it just duplicates the spell effect.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, it does stack well with itself and other fear effects, and there's no way to avoid it unless the creatures are completely immune to it. Player Characters and NPCs usually won't be, nor are most monsters. Sure, undead and constructs are, but the majority of enemies that most PCs face are living creatures. Fountain of Blood is a lot suckier and requires using a maneuver known/ready and then recovering it before re-use.</p><p></p><p>So - ninja appears and kills two or three of the party's horses or followers or something with a full-attack or a maneuver, and the entire party of PCs or NPCs is panicked and helpless for a few minutes, easy pickings, regardless of saving throws or spell resistance. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sudden Strikes and Sneak Attacks are roughly synonymous with critical hits. Anything immune to one is generally immune to the other, because they rely on roughly the same thing, one based on luck and the other on skill at hitting vitals.</p><p></p><p>Spells and magic are one thing, blade magic is another. Arcane or divine magic manipulates reality and does all kinds of stuff, changing the nature of things even. But you don't see any maneuvers that change a martial adept's body or grant him a monster's special powers or whatnot. Spells might make a weapon more potent against a particular kind of foe, but blade magic doesn't really make much sense for copying that. Blade magic is much more personal and subtle.</p><p></p><p>And anyway, just cuz WotC makes all kinds of junk that doesn't make sense doesn't make it a good idea to make even more junk that doesn't make sense. Like the Frenzied Berserker and other stuff that one goofball or another at WotC thought was a good idea but really wasn't.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, you gave them Evasion. Look at your level advancement table. And not every Swordsage grabs Adaptive Style, at least not early on necessarily. I've played and seen played a handful of swordsages that didn't bother with that feat, and only one that did take it. It's not really necessary unless they get into a lot of long fights or make really inefficient use of their maneuvers and maneuver slots. Or go for the Master of Nine prestige class, but then, that requires a significant investment in feats that doesn't really fit every Swordsage's style.</p><p></p><p>The class features you added are more than just compensating for the slightly inferior HD and Will save (especially since they still rely on Wisdom, so their Will save isn't likely to suck). And the somewhat narrower disciplines. I'm not saying they're terribly overpowered like that, but they do seem to get too many benefits for too few minor drawbacks compared to a Swordsage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arkhandus, post: 4276672, member: 13966"] Uh, it's only one of the most historically important parts of being a ninja. Infiltrating a lord's castle or other place by impersonating the peasant staff, memorizing guard patterns and the target's routines, then striking at the perfect time. You gave them Disguise, why not Bluff? Bluff is what you actually use to deceive people into thinking you're who you're dressed up to look like. Not to mention that Bluff is for feinting in combat, and ninjas did tricks like that all the frickin' time. Half of their weapons were made to be whipped out in a moment as surprise attacks, catching samurai/yojimbo off-guard. Gather Information? Pah. Ninjas gather their info by being sneaky bastages and spying on people. They get about half as many known, but slightly more than half as many per day, and they still recover about 3-7 times as many maneuvers in one action than a Swordsage does. And they get to move around while they do it, whereas the Swordsage has to stay parked in one spot (maybe shuffle 5 feet in one direction) while recovering maneuvers, as the enemies move around or continue to full-attack his bum arse. Warblades and Crusaders get too generous a recovery mechanic, yes. But Crusaders have randomized maneuver granting and a very narrow selection of maneuvers, while Warblades still have to expend a Swift action to recover maneuvers. The ninja just repositions himself and gets the benefit of super-speed or other such things at the same time, or could initiate a counter on the previous round without problem (a swordsage could as well, but the swordsage has a slow-arse recovery). As it is, the ninja has almost no use for Adaptive Style, like the Warblade and Crusader who have little use for it. Sure, it'd be helpful on rare occasions, but they don't know very many maneuvers beyond the ones they got readied. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart are also about speed to some extent; especially DM. Sure, DW is ever so slightly more speed-oriented, with one or two more maneuvers related to it in some way. That doesn't mean it's totally appropriate for a ninja. If they want to kill stuff faster, that's what Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw and Sudden Strike stuff is for, without all the flashy "I'm RIGHT HERE, freakin' ninja assassin RIGHT HERE, everyone! I'm in ur castle killin ur lord!" Desert Wind stuff. :) If the ninja wants a few of the speedy-not-flashy DW maneuvers, he/she can take Martial Study like everyone else. Though there's not much to take. Flashing Sun, Desert Tempest or whatever, and something else to meet the prerequisites for those first, I guess. The ninja's Speed Burst is also always-active for nearly all intents and purposes. And it isn't much of a burst if it's constant. It helps them maneuver in combat to reach better positions or chase down mounted targets. I'm just saying that I don't think they really need to be super marathon runners in addition to great sprinters. Considering that they're a bit overpowered as-is. Stealth Dash is far better than Dual Boost (the Swordsage is the closest martial adept to the ninja, so it's really the only one it should be closely compared to) and even moreso with the fact that Speed Burst is effectively constant (the occasional round of changing stances or using a boost/counter still leaves it active on most rounds). And how would anyone negate it? True Seeing sees through Blur and Displacement, not Stealth Dash. SD would have to say that it counts as a Displacement effect in order for True Seeing or similar abilities to get around it. Oh? Does every caster have a plethora of weaker spells prepared in their slots with Silent Spell on the off chance someone hits them with a Silence, when he/she would probably be expecting either a Ring of Counterspelling or the party's cleric with one Stilled Dispel Magic to take care of it? You're not really specific about how this Silence effect works. So I dunno if dispelling or suchlike would take it out. Metamagic rods aren't something I'd generally allow, not at the prices and abilities they have in the books, but then some DMs just allow anything ever printed without even considering how broken it might be. Still, yes, many casters will have some way of getting around Silence, but much of it depends on how your Silence effect works, like whether or not it just duplicates the spell effect. Yeah, it does stack well with itself and other fear effects, and there's no way to avoid it unless the creatures are completely immune to it. Player Characters and NPCs usually won't be, nor are most monsters. Sure, undead and constructs are, but the majority of enemies that most PCs face are living creatures. Fountain of Blood is a lot suckier and requires using a maneuver known/ready and then recovering it before re-use. So - ninja appears and kills two or three of the party's horses or followers or something with a full-attack or a maneuver, and the entire party of PCs or NPCs is panicked and helpless for a few minutes, easy pickings, regardless of saving throws or spell resistance. :( Sudden Strikes and Sneak Attacks are roughly synonymous with critical hits. Anything immune to one is generally immune to the other, because they rely on roughly the same thing, one based on luck and the other on skill at hitting vitals. Spells and magic are one thing, blade magic is another. Arcane or divine magic manipulates reality and does all kinds of stuff, changing the nature of things even. But you don't see any maneuvers that change a martial adept's body or grant him a monster's special powers or whatnot. Spells might make a weapon more potent against a particular kind of foe, but blade magic doesn't really make much sense for copying that. Blade magic is much more personal and subtle. And anyway, just cuz WotC makes all kinds of junk that doesn't make sense doesn't make it a good idea to make even more junk that doesn't make sense. Like the Frenzied Berserker and other stuff that one goofball or another at WotC thought was a good idea but really wasn't. Actually, you gave them Evasion. Look at your level advancement table. And not every Swordsage grabs Adaptive Style, at least not early on necessarily. I've played and seen played a handful of swordsages that didn't bother with that feat, and only one that did take it. It's not really necessary unless they get into a lot of long fights or make really inefficient use of their maneuvers and maneuver slots. Or go for the Master of Nine prestige class, but then, that requires a significant investment in feats that doesn't really fit every Swordsage's style. The class features you added are more than just compensating for the slightly inferior HD and Will save (especially since they still rely on Wisdom, so their Will save isn't likely to suck). And the somewhat narrower disciplines. I'm not saying they're terribly overpowered like that, but they do seem to get too many benefits for too few minor drawbacks compared to a Swordsage. [/QUOTE]
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