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ToB Ninja, stereotypes and all!
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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4277153" data-attributes="member: 35909"><p>I should probably state now, this Ninja isn't at all based upon historical accuracy. I try much as I can, but ultimately I wanted to create something more true to media representations. I suppose adding Bluff wouldn't be a major power boost, it's just that I was going for more of a silent killer style. If anyone else agrees, I'll add Bluff.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There are benefits of concealing weapons with Sleight of Hand besides feinting and drawing, but yes, that is useful. I was going for more of a ranged and hit and run focus, so I hadn't really considered feinting. Even with Improved Feint, it costs a move action. I disagree on the gather info thing, it really helps eavesdropping efforts if you know who/where to do so to begin with.</p><p></p><p></p><p>See, this is part of the issue. Even if Swordsages had a better recovery mechanic, Adaptive Style would still be a great feat to get because you've got so many known maneuvers to cycle through for the right occasion. I don't want to foist that kind of mechanic on anyone else, especially classes that don't get nearly that many maneuvers. It's really just cruel. Because no one else gets as much use out of Adaptive Style (half of the unreadied maneuvers are likely low level ones not swapped out yet), and your comparison is forgetting the fact that Swordsages need to refresh half as often as any other class, and at higher levels possibly never. I don't want to make it cost a swift action for the Ninja, though, because they've already got some heavy competition for the use of that action. I suppose I could just make it recover one maneuver, but that's just making the feat a requirement for another class, and far more so, since a 1st-3rd level Ninja's almost guaranteed to run out of his 3 readies every single combat. A swordsage isn't as vulnerable as you claim, either. At least not in a party. I played one, just save Sudden Leap/Quicksilver Motion or choose to recover them, and you can move back + 5 ft step past other party members. Most foes won't pursue.</p><p></p><p></p><p>IH is about killing one foe at a time with speed. DM is about quickness of mind. While both have some application here, only DW is truly about sheer speed. Not just the maneuvers and stances. Look at the feats. One gives an AC benefit for moving, and the tactical gives moving and tumbling effects, too. The other two disciplines focus on other things, mostly (DM gets coiled spring tactic, which I just find odd.) </p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, it looks like a more verbose defense of DW is needed. First off, again, this is supposed to more represent the kind of Ninja you'd see in video games and anime, more than historical. In such media, Ninja often have actual magical powers, frequently including fire magic. Thus, DW fits beautifully, aside from it and SH being the most "magical" disciplines in general. As for the maneuvers that don't involve immolating things, let's list some of these and why they fit:</p><p>Blistering Flourish: D&D equivalent of a flashbang, only weaker. Create a bright flash, run away while foes cover their eyes.</p><p>Desert Tempest: The most "Ninja" move in the whole book! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Run around, tumbling like mad, slashing at each enemy as they overstep trying to attack you.</p><p>Rising Pheonix: This lets the Ninja run over water, a staple of anime portrayals.</p><p>Leaping Flame: Pretty simple, Ninja mystically vanishes from where you see him to behind you, and finishes you with surprise attack.</p><p>Searing Charge: What? You think the Ninjas in the movies actually leapt up that high to attack someone with a jump check?!</p><p>Wind Stride: Its what lets a Ninja be speedy before the class feature kicks in.</p><p>Zephyr Dance: The Ninja dodges an attack that you could've sworn was going to hit. Does this one really need an explanation?</p><p></p><p>So...that's quite a bit right there, even if you don't want to go for a "magical" Ninja, methinks.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That was just the name I gave it because I suck at naming things. It was named in terms of combat use, where it really is a burst. Out of combat, yes, it's basically always on. I wanted Ninja to be the fastest class, and aside from being annoyingly good at fleeing, I still fail to see why this is so deadly in combat. Unlike the monk, whose speed is Ex, the Ninja's is Su from the start, and is overtly magical. And again, it's not even completely 10 ft ahead of the monk (ie, the monk won't just close the gap next level) till level 7, not completely 20 ft ahead till level 13, and not 30 ft till level about epic. As to the last remark, I'm not sure they are. They get stuff at every level, and are worth going to level 20, but I'm sure a properly multiclassed and prestige classed Swordsage, Monk, rogue, or (my) Ninja could be just as good, perhaps just not in the same ways.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All it does is stunt their vocal chords and prevent them from making vocal sounds for 1d4 rounds, it's really not even that magical. I'm starting to wonder if it should even be Su, maybe I just didn't want it working in an AMF. Not even sure now... Anyway, Whisper Gnomes get a racial feat that i believe they can take at level 1, that lets them place silence (as an SLA) on the victim, which is in some ways even nastier than this (some ways not), available much earlier. I beleive there's an ambush feast for rogues to do an Ex silencing effect, too. So, nope, the subject can still create noise and sound, just not use their voice. And again, any self respecting cster should have a defense against this, or at least some ability to use (Reserve feat, maybe?) by level 19, just as surely as they should have a means of escaping a grapple. I've never seen a mage go beyond level 12 without these things, even. Most have protections and plan B's by level 6. In conclusion: it's not dispel-able, nor does it affect an area around the person, they just can't make vocal sounds. And I'm sorry if you don't like metamagic rods, even so there's plenty of options by that level.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, it is too much. I think I have a solution, how is this? I add that if someone saves against this ability, they can't be affected by the same Ninja for 24 hours, much like a Dragon's fear aura and other effects. Yes, this doesn't make a high level Ninja army less dangerous, but it's still no comparison to a dozen mindflayers shooting mind blast or a bunch of casters spamming Enervation. Would this be good? They're still shaken, but henceforth immune.</p><p></p><p></p><p>While being immune to crits makes you immune to SA, your premise falls because basically every single example I named, printed by WotC over many books (some are in multiple different ones), basically allows SA damage but NOT critical hits. So clearly, you can bypass one without the other.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Please don't compare my work to the Frenzied Berserker. I want ot be polite, but you must understand... Them's fightin' words! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p>RAW, "blade magic" can dispel an antimagic field from inside, with a mighty roar, so I'm not sure i agree with this. ^_^</p><p>Maybe it's personal taste, but I don't like forcing noncasters to play by the rules of realityjust because they don't use "magic." Even simple high level Fighters break reality all the time. Their jump checks would smash Olympic records. The fact that they can reliably cut past the hides of elder dragons and other beasts, whose scales are often much more protection than what full plate offers...how are these not reality-bending and "magical" in their own right? And since you can't get Find Pressure Point until level 11+, yes, using a high level Fighter as a cross example is fair game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Whoops! I totally screwed up there! Yes, they get Evasion, just not Improved Evasion. A thousand apologies for that most embarassing mis-statement!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well yes, this goes with my earlier point. The swordsage may have a (IMO too) punitive recovery system, but they're also highly likely to not need to use it often. Which is why, for someone with the amount of maneuvers of the Ninja, I compare it to the other two classes, where it seems quite balanced, and possibly not as good as theirs. If a Swordsage does need Adaptive Style, though, they also get incredible use out of it, almost becoming the martial equivalent of a wizard that can re-write his spell book any time he wants.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's possible, of course. I won't really know till it's been properly playtested. Fortunately, I'm (slowly) putting together a game right now to finally give it a test drive. Rotating DM and gestlt, so perhaps not the best testing conditions, but it's something at least. For now, I think their weak weapon damage, slow Sudden Strike progression, inability to mount a persistent and sustainable offense (Warblades can keep up the attack as they recover, even with the same progression), poor HD (and since wis is more important to them than for a Swordsage, they'll likely have lower con, too), and an AC that will often be worse than the Swordsage's (who can wear mithral breastplate and enhance it to +5), will limit their potency enough to balance them.</p><p></p><p>From just looking at it on paper, it looks unquestionably weaker at the early levels, and all the potential problems come in later. Which I might even find acceptable, since a) the majority of game time is spent in the single digit levels and b) even if they were twice as strong at the upper levels, Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, etc... are still miles upon miles ahead of them and all other noncasters by then anyway.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for the feedback.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 4277153, member: 35909"] I should probably state now, this Ninja isn't at all based upon historical accuracy. I try much as I can, but ultimately I wanted to create something more true to media representations. I suppose adding Bluff wouldn't be a major power boost, it's just that I was going for more of a silent killer style. If anyone else agrees, I'll add Bluff. There are benefits of concealing weapons with Sleight of Hand besides feinting and drawing, but yes, that is useful. I was going for more of a ranged and hit and run focus, so I hadn't really considered feinting. Even with Improved Feint, it costs a move action. I disagree on the gather info thing, it really helps eavesdropping efforts if you know who/where to do so to begin with. See, this is part of the issue. Even if Swordsages had a better recovery mechanic, Adaptive Style would still be a great feat to get because you've got so many known maneuvers to cycle through for the right occasion. I don't want to foist that kind of mechanic on anyone else, especially classes that don't get nearly that many maneuvers. It's really just cruel. Because no one else gets as much use out of Adaptive Style (half of the unreadied maneuvers are likely low level ones not swapped out yet), and your comparison is forgetting the fact that Swordsages need to refresh half as often as any other class, and at higher levels possibly never. I don't want to make it cost a swift action for the Ninja, though, because they've already got some heavy competition for the use of that action. I suppose I could just make it recover one maneuver, but that's just making the feat a requirement for another class, and far more so, since a 1st-3rd level Ninja's almost guaranteed to run out of his 3 readies every single combat. A swordsage isn't as vulnerable as you claim, either. At least not in a party. I played one, just save Sudden Leap/Quicksilver Motion or choose to recover them, and you can move back + 5 ft step past other party members. Most foes won't pursue. IH is about killing one foe at a time with speed. DM is about quickness of mind. While both have some application here, only DW is truly about sheer speed. Not just the maneuvers and stances. Look at the feats. One gives an AC benefit for moving, and the tactical gives moving and tumbling effects, too. The other two disciplines focus on other things, mostly (DM gets coiled spring tactic, which I just find odd.) Ok, it looks like a more verbose defense of DW is needed. First off, again, this is supposed to more represent the kind of Ninja you'd see in video games and anime, more than historical. In such media, Ninja often have actual magical powers, frequently including fire magic. Thus, DW fits beautifully, aside from it and SH being the most "magical" disciplines in general. As for the maneuvers that don't involve immolating things, let's list some of these and why they fit: Blistering Flourish: D&D equivalent of a flashbang, only weaker. Create a bright flash, run away while foes cover their eyes. Desert Tempest: The most "Ninja" move in the whole book! :) Run around, tumbling like mad, slashing at each enemy as they overstep trying to attack you. Rising Pheonix: This lets the Ninja run over water, a staple of anime portrayals. Leaping Flame: Pretty simple, Ninja mystically vanishes from where you see him to behind you, and finishes you with surprise attack. Searing Charge: What? You think the Ninjas in the movies actually leapt up that high to attack someone with a jump check?! Wind Stride: Its what lets a Ninja be speedy before the class feature kicks in. Zephyr Dance: The Ninja dodges an attack that you could've sworn was going to hit. Does this one really need an explanation? So...that's quite a bit right there, even if you don't want to go for a "magical" Ninja, methinks. That was just the name I gave it because I suck at naming things. It was named in terms of combat use, where it really is a burst. Out of combat, yes, it's basically always on. I wanted Ninja to be the fastest class, and aside from being annoyingly good at fleeing, I still fail to see why this is so deadly in combat. Unlike the monk, whose speed is Ex, the Ninja's is Su from the start, and is overtly magical. And again, it's not even completely 10 ft ahead of the monk (ie, the monk won't just close the gap next level) till level 7, not completely 20 ft ahead till level 13, and not 30 ft till level about epic. As to the last remark, I'm not sure they are. They get stuff at every level, and are worth going to level 20, but I'm sure a properly multiclassed and prestige classed Swordsage, Monk, rogue, or (my) Ninja could be just as good, perhaps just not in the same ways. All it does is stunt their vocal chords and prevent them from making vocal sounds for 1d4 rounds, it's really not even that magical. I'm starting to wonder if it should even be Su, maybe I just didn't want it working in an AMF. Not even sure now... Anyway, Whisper Gnomes get a racial feat that i believe they can take at level 1, that lets them place silence (as an SLA) on the victim, which is in some ways even nastier than this (some ways not), available much earlier. I beleive there's an ambush feast for rogues to do an Ex silencing effect, too. So, nope, the subject can still create noise and sound, just not use their voice. And again, any self respecting cster should have a defense against this, or at least some ability to use (Reserve feat, maybe?) by level 19, just as surely as they should have a means of escaping a grapple. I've never seen a mage go beyond level 12 without these things, even. Most have protections and plan B's by level 6. In conclusion: it's not dispel-able, nor does it affect an area around the person, they just can't make vocal sounds. And I'm sorry if you don't like metamagic rods, even so there's plenty of options by that level. Yeah, it is too much. I think I have a solution, how is this? I add that if someone saves against this ability, they can't be affected by the same Ninja for 24 hours, much like a Dragon's fear aura and other effects. Yes, this doesn't make a high level Ninja army less dangerous, but it's still no comparison to a dozen mindflayers shooting mind blast or a bunch of casters spamming Enervation. Would this be good? They're still shaken, but henceforth immune. While being immune to crits makes you immune to SA, your premise falls because basically every single example I named, printed by WotC over many books (some are in multiple different ones), basically allows SA damage but NOT critical hits. So clearly, you can bypass one without the other. Please don't compare my work to the Frenzied Berserker. I want ot be polite, but you must understand... Them's fightin' words! ;) RAW, "blade magic" can dispel an antimagic field from inside, with a mighty roar, so I'm not sure i agree with this. ^_^ Maybe it's personal taste, but I don't like forcing noncasters to play by the rules of realityjust because they don't use "magic." Even simple high level Fighters break reality all the time. Their jump checks would smash Olympic records. The fact that they can reliably cut past the hides of elder dragons and other beasts, whose scales are often much more protection than what full plate offers...how are these not reality-bending and "magical" in their own right? And since you can't get Find Pressure Point until level 11+, yes, using a high level Fighter as a cross example is fair game. Whoops! I totally screwed up there! Yes, they get Evasion, just not Improved Evasion. A thousand apologies for that most embarassing mis-statement! Well yes, this goes with my earlier point. The swordsage may have a (IMO too) punitive recovery system, but they're also highly likely to not need to use it often. Which is why, for someone with the amount of maneuvers of the Ninja, I compare it to the other two classes, where it seems quite balanced, and possibly not as good as theirs. If a Swordsage does need Adaptive Style, though, they also get incredible use out of it, almost becoming the martial equivalent of a wizard that can re-write his spell book any time he wants. It's possible, of course. I won't really know till it's been properly playtested. Fortunately, I'm (slowly) putting together a game right now to finally give it a test drive. Rotating DM and gestlt, so perhaps not the best testing conditions, but it's something at least. For now, I think their weak weapon damage, slow Sudden Strike progression, inability to mount a persistent and sustainable offense (Warblades can keep up the attack as they recover, even with the same progression), poor HD (and since wis is more important to them than for a Swordsage, they'll likely have lower con, too), and an AC that will often be worse than the Swordsage's (who can wear mithral breastplate and enhance it to +5), will limit their potency enough to balance them. From just looking at it on paper, it looks unquestionably weaker at the early levels, and all the potential problems come in later. Which I might even find acceptable, since a) the majority of game time is spent in the single digit levels and b) even if they were twice as strong at the upper levels, Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, etc... are still miles upon miles ahead of them and all other noncasters by then anyway. Thanks for the feedback. [/QUOTE]
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