Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Tomb of Horrors - example of many, or one of a kind?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5577844" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I'm not sure what you are saying. </p><p></p><p>I'm saying however that most of the old school modules run with a party of 4-6 midway in the suggested character levels or with the pregenerated characters and ran by an experience DM who takes his kid gloves off will result in a TPK most of the time and EVERY time for a less than extremely experienced party. </p><p></p><p>In the case of C1, I6, and S4, success depends not only on playing well, but also on getting lucky with the dice. In the case of S1, luck with the dice has relatively little impact.</p><p></p><p>It's very illustrative to compare the challenges of "Tomb of Horrors" with those of "Return to the Tomb of Horrors". The original "Tomb of Horrors" is a puzzle dungeon that rewards careful play and tangental thinking. "Return to the Tomb of Horrors" is a hack and slash dungeon that heavily rewards character optimization and system mastery. In <em>Tomb of Horrors</em>, there are many examples of "Die, No Save" as a result of some player proposition. In one case even as little as, "We move cautiously down the corridor checking for traps." results in a TPK (Note, not 'may' result in a TPK, does result in a TPK; after the proposition is made the party dies). This is fair, because by the time this trap is encountered, hopefully the players have already realized the normal cautious approach won't work very well and the blunder ahead approach is suicidal. And if not, ToH claims another set of victims.</p><p></p><p>But in <em>Return to the Tomb of Horrors</em> there are many examples of "Die, No Save" <em>that don't depend on player proposition at all</em>, but on such things as the random chance that an unavoidable monster successfully hits a party member before being killed. The former is entirely a test of player skill and the 'trap' is avoided solely by being more cautious than the usual stock answer of "We move cautiously down the corridor checking for traps." The later is entirely a test of character skill. It can't be avoided; all you can do is try to mitigate the luck by having very high AC and overwhelming offensive capabilities. This is not fair, as the player can now die regardless of what his choices were. (Granted, the odds of death might be lower than the odds of death in the aforementioned corridor trap, but one is controllable risk and the other is not.) There are no such encounters in the original, although arguably player choice can turn the final encounter into one.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5577844, member: 4937"] I'm not sure what you are saying. I'm saying however that most of the old school modules run with a party of 4-6 midway in the suggested character levels or with the pregenerated characters and ran by an experience DM who takes his kid gloves off will result in a TPK most of the time and EVERY time for a less than extremely experienced party. In the case of C1, I6, and S4, success depends not only on playing well, but also on getting lucky with the dice. In the case of S1, luck with the dice has relatively little impact. It's very illustrative to compare the challenges of "Tomb of Horrors" with those of "Return to the Tomb of Horrors". The original "Tomb of Horrors" is a puzzle dungeon that rewards careful play and tangental thinking. "Return to the Tomb of Horrors" is a hack and slash dungeon that heavily rewards character optimization and system mastery. In [I]Tomb of Horrors[/I], there are many examples of "Die, No Save" as a result of some player proposition. In one case even as little as, "We move cautiously down the corridor checking for traps." results in a TPK (Note, not 'may' result in a TPK, does result in a TPK; after the proposition is made the party dies). This is fair, because by the time this trap is encountered, hopefully the players have already realized the normal cautious approach won't work very well and the blunder ahead approach is suicidal. And if not, ToH claims another set of victims. But in [I]Return to the Tomb of Horrors[/I] there are many examples of "Die, No Save" [I]that don't depend on player proposition at all[/I], but on such things as the random chance that an unavoidable monster successfully hits a party member before being killed. The former is entirely a test of player skill and the 'trap' is avoided solely by being more cautious than the usual stock answer of "We move cautiously down the corridor checking for traps." The later is entirely a test of character skill. It can't be avoided; all you can do is try to mitigate the luck by having very high AC and overwhelming offensive capabilities. This is not fair, as the player can now die regardless of what his choices were. (Granted, the odds of death might be lower than the odds of death in the aforementioned corridor trap, but one is controllable risk and the other is not.) There are no such encounters in the original, although arguably player choice can turn the final encounter into one. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Tomb of Horrors - example of many, or one of a kind?
Top