Pathfinder 2E TPK is the only way to kill a character?

[Retreater]

Other than the first couple sessions, we hadn't used Hero Points since starting our PF2 game in January. We had just forgotten they existed. But after getting on forums, re-reading the books after a very dangerous encounter the session before last, I decided it was time to make sure we were playing "by the book," and I reminded everyone about Hero Points.
It must've been then that every player said "I can't die." The rogue transformed into a T-Rex and ran into an enemy camp, the party was split on two fronts - either of which would have been a challenging encounter for the entire group. The cleric couldn't burst heal everybody at the same time, they were so split.
Each character, one by one, dropped. On their last death save, they simply chucked their Hero Point on the table (metaphorically speaking). "I'm stable. I can't die."
And you know what? The champion very nearly succeeded in driving off the last of the monsters. Had he survived one more round, the battle would've been won and the party would have proven they were immortals. But some bad rolls for him (and good for me), he also dropped. Even though he had a Hero Point to stabilize, the monsters were able to kill them all off.
So I guess my question is, with the addition of Hero Points, is a TPK the only way to kill a character?

 

[Doctor Futurity]

Nope. I've been running PF2 twice weekly and have not had a TPK yet (but came close twice). We have had a few deaths, and one "drag the corpse to the temple to get resurrected" situation. Really, if the party isn't planning carefully, it only takes a downed PC at an inopportune time/location to lead to a quick death. Drop to zero--dying 1 (or higher if in wounded condition already). Monster finishes PC off with two more attacks? Dying 3 or worse just like that. Fail a stabilization roll...dead. Player spent Hero Point already on that botched fumble attack...too bad!

If the players hoard hero points (and the GM hands them out liberally; I do not) then yeah, I could see the strategy being using HP as get out of jail cards. But my players at least seem to use the hero points early and often to avoid fumbles, mostly.

PF2 does feel designed carefully to make risk of death a strong factor, but likelihood of death lower with good tactics and planning, so it tends to play well into the groups that like to strategize. That said, I've had 1st level, 5th level, 6th level, 13th level and 15th level character deaths in just the last six months, so I'd say the game actually feels more lethal than my D&D 5E experiences (but maybe less lethal than level 1-4 gameplay in original 3.5). This runs contrary to my original expectations, when I first started PF2 last year I thought the level of healing through magic and medicine was too effective, now I think it's mostly just barely enough to keep them alive against properly adjusted encounters.

 

[Retreater]

@Doctor Futurity if I were a player I would not touch my last Hero Point unless it was life or death. I don't care if it's an important attack roll, a save vs massive damage, or even a botched Diplomacy check that could derail the campaign. Maybe that's just me?

 

[Doctor Futurity]

I sort of feel that way too, but my players seem to use the hero points more strategically to make re-rolls on the things they really want to accomplish. I've only seen one use of a hero point to stabilize in the last year....my assumption is because in most cases, if the group is playing carefully, then help is close enough that a hero point would be a waste.

 

[kenada]

We’ve had a TPK, but we’ve also had them used a few times to save dying characters. I’m glad there they’re because it means I don’t have to worry quite so much when a lucky crit drops a PC (especially since there’s usually an opportunity cost in my game for resting in dungeons, so my PCs rarely go into fights at full resources).

Last session, we almost lost a PC, but she was saved by another way I allow hero points to be used: you can spend them to improve someone else’s degree of success. The party had gotten into a sticky situation with a couple of mimics, and the fight was going poorly. The sorcerer was grabbed and failed her check to Escape, but another player spent a hero point to convert it into a success. They were able to get away, regroup, and finish off the mimics.

 

[CapnZapp]

So I guess my question is, with the addition of Hero Points, is a TPK the only way to kill a character?

Heavens no.

Just whack the stable character again.

If anything, my criticism of hero points is that they don't carry enough narrative power.

 

[Furmyr]

My group has gotten to level 11 and have had 3 deaths so far. They are far more likely to spend hero point to avoid getting into a situation where death saves are needed. Often saving throws or attack rolls vs foes that looks very battered.

Last session I had to characters down to dying and both where back up long before the final death save were a danger. Guess they have to much trust in the healer, as the only time they have run away is when he has been down for the count.

 

[Retreater]

My group has gotten to level 11 and have had 3 deaths so far. They are far more likely to spend hero point to avoid getting into a situation where death saves are needed. Often saving throws or attack rolls vs foes that looks very battered.

Last session I had to characters down to dying and both where back up long before the final death save were a danger. Guess they have to much trust in the healer, as the only time they have run away is when he has been down for the count.

We've had 2 TPKs (8 character deaths) and just reached 8th level. The first party that got wiped didn't have a dedicated healer after the player of the cleric dropped out of the game - and relied on Medicine checks outside of combat.
I haven't had a character death outside of a TPK.

 

[Campbell]

I think the impact of Hero Points (to stabilize) is being overstated. In cases where dying party members are not being actively attacked or dealing with splash damage from area attacks in most cases it takes willful neglect by other party members to have someone bleed out. The first time a character drops in a fight (if they do not go down from a critical hit) they will have at least 2 full rounds before they bleed out. In the vast majority of cases they will last at least 3 rounds before bleeding out.

Things do get significantly tougher if people are going down multiple times in the same fight or if a critical hit brings them down, but even starting from Dying 2 generally will give you 2 rounds of life. 2 rounds is like forever in Pathfinder 2 terms.

The cases where Hero Points save your skin when someone else would not be able to are incredibly rare. It feels really good when you do it, but it is often a false negative. The big saving grace of using Hero Points is that you do not increase your Wounded Value.

Being stabilized is also not really that great. You are still Unconscious (-4 status penalty to AC, Perception, and Reflex Saves) which also means you are Flat Footed (-2 circumstance penalty to AC). You are incredibly vulnerable. Area damage can easily send you back reeling.