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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9095322" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Except that, as I said, it isn't. Both the actual rules-text, and the best-practices instructions for 5e (and 4e!) reject this approach.</p><p></p><p>I have <em>plenty</em> of things I dislike about 5e. "It's rollplaying, not roleplaying" is not one of them. Your claim is simply a more involved way of making that accusation.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What on earth does that have to do with anything?</p><p></p><p>Littering the game with instant-death traps <em>is teaching them that every wall and floor could hide instant death</em>. So they will respond rationally: they wish to keep playing, and wish to avoid failure and danger. Thus, they will take every possible precaution to avoid these extreme dangers, which means inch-by-inch exploration (and I don't mean "inches measured on the battlemap"!) and repeatedly going through the same safety checklist each time. That such activity is tedious and has little <em>thought</em> involved is a historical fact--it's the reason Gygax introduced the blatantly gamist ear seekers, which make no sense whatsoever biologically, but <em>perfect</em> sense as a way to scare players out of "standard operating procedure"-induced complacency.</p><p></p><p>Players aren't dumb. They pay attention to the consequences of their actions, and those consequences teach them what kind of game they're really playing. You can say all the live-long day that you don't want murderhobo players, but your GM actions will always speak louder. The second or third time the PCs get jumped by enemies they'd previously shown mercy to, <em>no matter how realistic that might be</em>, they'll learn that mercy is a sucker's game, that the only way to be safe is to always go for the kill. Because their enemies always do--and any assurances they make otherwise are simply lies. Same goes for crime and authority/law enforcement. If they see that crime pays and that the authorities are corrupt, incompetent, or malicious, they will make use of that. If they see that people they ally with frequently betray them, they will stop forming alliances unless betrayal is impossible or (more likely) they intend to beat the betrayers to the punch. Etc.</p><p></p><p>There's no malice here. There's no "hatred" of the GM or whatever. It's literally just <em>being rational</em>. If you see that something works, you do it more. If you see that something bites you in the ass all or almost all of the time you do it, you <em>stop</em>. If an action has no value (noting that moral value is just as valid as any other form of value), players will stop doing it.</p><p></p><p>You reap what you sow. Fill the world with deadly traps, and players will become hyper-cautious trap-hunters. Fill the world with backstabbing jerks who repay mercy by coming back with reinforcements, and players will spare themselves the trouble of dealing with a second fight. Fill the world with traitorous scum who break their word and betray their allies, and players will avoid ever allowing someone close enough to betray them--or (try to) get in on the betrayal game first. Fill the world with lucrative criminal activity and authority figures that are malicious, corrupt, or incompetent, and players will commit crime and resist/bribe/undermine authority whenever it benefits them.</p><p></p><p>Again, this has <em>drek-all</em> to do with being "hostile to the DM to begin with." It's being rational in response to the actions GMs take. And many, many, <em>many</em> GMs are simply unaware that this is what they're doing. Oftentimes, this is because the GM's desire for "realism" or "challenge" is actually at odds with the tone and theme they prefer, but they don't realize this.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, you use insults and canards, rather than engaging with what I've described. You mock my playstyle as being infinitely permissive, involving no gameplay, difficulty, or challenge, where absolutely everything is sunshine and rainbows forever.</p><p></p><p>How does this contribute to the conversation? I have told you, point blank, repeatedly, that these descriptions are simply wrong. Yet you keep making them. Why?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9095322, member: 6790260"] Except that, as I said, it isn't. Both the actual rules-text, and the best-practices instructions for 5e (and 4e!) reject this approach. I have [I]plenty[/I] of things I dislike about 5e. "It's rollplaying, not roleplaying" is not one of them. Your claim is simply a more involved way of making that accusation. What on earth does that have to do with anything? Littering the game with instant-death traps [I]is teaching them that every wall and floor could hide instant death[/I]. So they will respond rationally: they wish to keep playing, and wish to avoid failure and danger. Thus, they will take every possible precaution to avoid these extreme dangers, which means inch-by-inch exploration (and I don't mean "inches measured on the battlemap"!) and repeatedly going through the same safety checklist each time. That such activity is tedious and has little [I]thought[/I] involved is a historical fact--it's the reason Gygax introduced the blatantly gamist ear seekers, which make no sense whatsoever biologically, but [I]perfect[/I] sense as a way to scare players out of "standard operating procedure"-induced complacency. Players aren't dumb. They pay attention to the consequences of their actions, and those consequences teach them what kind of game they're really playing. You can say all the live-long day that you don't want murderhobo players, but your GM actions will always speak louder. The second or third time the PCs get jumped by enemies they'd previously shown mercy to, [I]no matter how realistic that might be[/I], they'll learn that mercy is a sucker's game, that the only way to be safe is to always go for the kill. Because their enemies always do--and any assurances they make otherwise are simply lies. Same goes for crime and authority/law enforcement. If they see that crime pays and that the authorities are corrupt, incompetent, or malicious, they will make use of that. If they see that people they ally with frequently betray them, they will stop forming alliances unless betrayal is impossible or (more likely) they intend to beat the betrayers to the punch. Etc. There's no malice here. There's no "hatred" of the GM or whatever. It's literally just [I]being rational[/I]. If you see that something works, you do it more. If you see that something bites you in the ass all or almost all of the time you do it, you [I]stop[/I]. If an action has no value (noting that moral value is just as valid as any other form of value), players will stop doing it. You reap what you sow. Fill the world with deadly traps, and players will become hyper-cautious trap-hunters. Fill the world with backstabbing jerks who repay mercy by coming back with reinforcements, and players will spare themselves the trouble of dealing with a second fight. Fill the world with traitorous scum who break their word and betray their allies, and players will avoid ever allowing someone close enough to betray them--or (try to) get in on the betrayal game first. Fill the world with lucrative criminal activity and authority figures that are malicious, corrupt, or incompetent, and players will commit crime and resist/bribe/undermine authority whenever it benefits them. Again, this has [I]drek-all[/I] to do with being "hostile to the DM to begin with." It's being rational in response to the actions GMs take. And many, many, [I]many[/I] GMs are simply unaware that this is what they're doing. Oftentimes, this is because the GM's desire for "realism" or "challenge" is actually at odds with the tone and theme they prefer, but they don't realize this. Again, you use insults and canards, rather than engaging with what I've described. You mock my playstyle as being infinitely permissive, involving no gameplay, difficulty, or challenge, where absolutely everything is sunshine and rainbows forever. How does this contribute to the conversation? I have told you, point blank, repeatedly, that these descriptions are simply wrong. Yet you keep making them. Why? [/QUOTE]
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