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<blockquote data-quote="DeviousQuail" data-source="post: 8786390" data-attributes="member: 7025431"><p>We have our four groupings and for the Experts they made all the subclass features occur at the same levels: 3, 6, 10, 14. This meant adding an extra feature for the bard, as they only had three before, and shuffling levels downward for the rogue. Assuming they decide to do something similar for the other three groups I have predictions for their subclass feature levels.</p><p></p><p>Mage: 1, 6, 10, 14</p><p>[SPOILER="Mage Reasoning"]</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Currently we have Sorcerer (1, 6, 14, 18), Warlock (1, 6, 10, 14), and Wizard (2, 6, 10, 14)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">This was discussed in another thread but for flavor and design reasons I don't think they'll wait until level 3. You could probably do that with the Wizard but it would be awkward for Sorcerers and Warlocks. Too much of what they are is tied to their subclass for them to wait.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizards get their first subclass feature at level 1 instead of 2. You could switch the subclass with Arcane Recovery to prevent an empty level.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warlocks already do this if you don't include their pact boons.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sorcerers are currently 1, 6, 14, 18 so you just have to push the last two up a bit. I doubt anyone will complain and it leaves level 18 open for a class wide capstone like we saw with the Experts.</li> </ul><p>[/SPOILER]</p><p>Warrior: 3, 7, 10, 15</p><p>[SPOILER="Warrior Reasoning"]</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Currently we have Fighters (3, 7, 10, 15, 18), Monk (3, 6, 11, 17), and Barbarian (3, 6, 10, 14). Level 3 is a given but it gets tougher after that.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I think they do level 7 instead 6 for the next subclass feature because if Fighters switch their 6 and 7th level then they're getting back-to-back feats at levels 7 and 8. Whereas switching the Monk lets us move Evasion and/or Stillness of Mind to 6, which is fine. Barbarians move Feral Instinct and Instinctive Pounce to 6, which is also fine. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The next one is tricky because the Fighter and Barbarian 10th level features are very different from the monk 11th level feature. 11th level features are meant to be power jumps as you enter a new tier of play. I'd be more in favor of pushing the monk's feature down to level 10 and hope no one minds getting Purity of Body one level later.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Finally, while it's possible they go with 5 subclass feature levels I'm predicting they go with 4. Since level 18 will be reserved for the capstone feature I think we'll see Fighters either get new features or some combination of their 15th and 18th level features rolled into one. Moving the Fighter away from level 15 is tough because you run into the issue of potentially having back-to-back feats again. But if we move the others to level 15 then monks can switch Timeless Body to level 17 or it stays at 15 and Perfect Self and Empty Body move down to backfill. Barbarians can just switch Persistent Rage and their path feature. I don't think there is any conflict there between class and subclass abilities.</li> </ul><p>[/SPOILER]</p><p>Priest (until we find a better word I guess): 2, 6, 10, 17</p><p>[SPOILER="Priest Reasoning"]</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Currently we have Paladins (3, 7, 15, 20), Cleric (1, 2, 6, 8, 17), and Druid (2, 6, 10, 14). I regret doing this all now.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">This is tough. Cleric's get their power from their god. It also affects their channel divinity. If they don't start at level 1 then they need to at least start at level 2. Starting at level 3 would be way too big of a power jump with the features and full caster spell bump. They also have an additional subclass feature compared to the others. My guess is they all get pushed to level 2. Clerics will just have to be faithful for a level before getting their reward at level 2.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paladins might have to push their Divine Smite to level 3 to make room but they'll get their Channel Divinity at level 2 just like clerics. It won't hurt that their Oath Spells will also come online at the same level as their spellcasting.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wild Shape is the Druid version of Channel Divinity I guess so getting that and their subclass features at the same time keeps them in line with the other two.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Druid and Cleric probably won't have their next feature at level 7 because that's a spell bump for them. Paladins could get their general aura and unique aura at the same time at level 6. I doubt Conquest Paladins would complain. But that leaves an empty level for them at level 7. Moving anything to fill the gap gets repetitive or wonky. A new class feature, likely a ribbon, gets added at 7th.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Now I'm going to work backwards. Level 20 is epic boon time. That means pushing Archdruid, Divine Intervention Improvement, and the last Paladin subclass feature down. But if we stick with class wide capstones at 18 then the Paladin needs to drop that last subclass feature even further. I'm guessing level 17 for all of them. No change for Cleric. Druids have to move Timeless Body or Beast Spells to fill in at 14. I'd vote Beast spells.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I'm aware this breaks the spell bump rule I set out earlier but Clerics were already doing it anyway.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">With that done we just have to figure out the Paladin 15, Cleric 8, and Druid 10. They are all over the map in terms of power. <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cleric 8 could actually be replaced by the Tasha's variant. None of them were really unique enough to warrant it being a subclass feature. Perhaps an additional feature at level 10 or make the level 10 Divine Intervention feature a subclass thing. Instead of just randomly rolling and hoping your god isn't asleep at the wheel we could get a divine intervention that matches the god's portfolio. Then at level 18 they can just ask for anything.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Druids can just do their normal thing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paladins could have their 15 drop to 10 but they'd need to be nerfed a bit. Cleansing Touch moves from 14 to 15 and Aura of Courage gets pushed to 14. Honestly, I know that sucks but otherwise they'll need to make another new feature for Paladins. They did it in the UA so it could happen and then this all fits better.</li> </ul></li> </ul><p>[/SPOILER]</p><p></p><p>All of this has the side effect of making every subclass have four levels worth of features. That could allow for some interesting cross class additions in the future. Particularly with level 10 being shared across all classes and two features showing up earlier and one feature happening after.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DeviousQuail, post: 8786390, member: 7025431"] We have our four groupings and for the Experts they made all the subclass features occur at the same levels: 3, 6, 10, 14. This meant adding an extra feature for the bard, as they only had three before, and shuffling levels downward for the rogue. Assuming they decide to do something similar for the other three groups I have predictions for their subclass feature levels. Mage: 1, 6, 10, 14 [SPOILER="Mage Reasoning"] [LIST] [*]Currently we have Sorcerer (1, 6, 14, 18), Warlock (1, 6, 10, 14), and Wizard (2, 6, 10, 14) [*]This was discussed in another thread but for flavor and design reasons I don't think they'll wait until level 3. You could probably do that with the Wizard but it would be awkward for Sorcerers and Warlocks. Too much of what they are is tied to their subclass for them to wait. [*]Wizards get their first subclass feature at level 1 instead of 2. You could switch the subclass with Arcane Recovery to prevent an empty level. [*]Warlocks already do this if you don't include their pact boons. [*]Sorcerers are currently 1, 6, 14, 18 so you just have to push the last two up a bit. I doubt anyone will complain and it leaves level 18 open for a class wide capstone like we saw with the Experts. [/LIST] [/SPOILER] Warrior: 3, 7, 10, 15 [SPOILER="Warrior Reasoning"] [LIST] [*]Currently we have Fighters (3, 7, 10, 15, 18), Monk (3, 6, 11, 17), and Barbarian (3, 6, 10, 14). Level 3 is a given but it gets tougher after that. [*]I think they do level 7 instead 6 for the next subclass feature because if Fighters switch their 6 and 7th level then they're getting back-to-back feats at levels 7 and 8. Whereas switching the Monk lets us move Evasion and/or Stillness of Mind to 6, which is fine. Barbarians move Feral Instinct and Instinctive Pounce to 6, which is also fine. [*]The next one is tricky because the Fighter and Barbarian 10th level features are very different from the monk 11th level feature. 11th level features are meant to be power jumps as you enter a new tier of play. I'd be more in favor of pushing the monk's feature down to level 10 and hope no one minds getting Purity of Body one level later. [*]Finally, while it's possible they go with 5 subclass feature levels I'm predicting they go with 4. Since level 18 will be reserved for the capstone feature I think we'll see Fighters either get new features or some combination of their 15th and 18th level features rolled into one. Moving the Fighter away from level 15 is tough because you run into the issue of potentially having back-to-back feats again. But if we move the others to level 15 then monks can switch Timeless Body to level 17 or it stays at 15 and Perfect Self and Empty Body move down to backfill. Barbarians can just switch Persistent Rage and their path feature. I don't think there is any conflict there between class and subclass abilities. [/LIST] [/SPOILER] Priest (until we find a better word I guess): 2, 6, 10, 17 [SPOILER="Priest Reasoning"] [LIST] [*]Currently we have Paladins (3, 7, 15, 20), Cleric (1, 2, 6, 8, 17), and Druid (2, 6, 10, 14). I regret doing this all now. [*]This is tough. Cleric's get their power from their god. It also affects their channel divinity. If they don't start at level 1 then they need to at least start at level 2. Starting at level 3 would be way too big of a power jump with the features and full caster spell bump. They also have an additional subclass feature compared to the others. My guess is they all get pushed to level 2. Clerics will just have to be faithful for a level before getting their reward at level 2. [LIST] [*]Paladins might have to push their Divine Smite to level 3 to make room but they'll get their Channel Divinity at level 2 just like clerics. It won't hurt that their Oath Spells will also come online at the same level as their spellcasting. [*]Wild Shape is the Druid version of Channel Divinity I guess so getting that and their subclass features at the same time keeps them in line with the other two. [/LIST] [*]Druid and Cleric probably won't have their next feature at level 7 because that's a spell bump for them. Paladins could get their general aura and unique aura at the same time at level 6. I doubt Conquest Paladins would complain. But that leaves an empty level for them at level 7. Moving anything to fill the gap gets repetitive or wonky. A new class feature, likely a ribbon, gets added at 7th. [*]Now I'm going to work backwards. Level 20 is epic boon time. That means pushing Archdruid, Divine Intervention Improvement, and the last Paladin subclass feature down. But if we stick with class wide capstones at 18 then the Paladin needs to drop that last subclass feature even further. I'm guessing level 17 for all of them. No change for Cleric. Druids have to move Timeless Body or Beast Spells to fill in at 14. I'd vote Beast spells. [LIST] [*]I'm aware this breaks the spell bump rule I set out earlier but Clerics were already doing it anyway. [/LIST] [*]With that done we just have to figure out the Paladin 15, Cleric 8, and Druid 10. They are all over the map in terms of power. [LIST] [*]Cleric 8 could actually be replaced by the Tasha's variant. None of them were really unique enough to warrant it being a subclass feature. Perhaps an additional feature at level 10 or make the level 10 Divine Intervention feature a subclass thing. Instead of just randomly rolling and hoping your god isn't asleep at the wheel we could get a divine intervention that matches the god's portfolio. Then at level 18 they can just ask for anything. [*]Druids can just do their normal thing. [*]Paladins could have their 15 drop to 10 but they'd need to be nerfed a bit. Cleansing Touch moves from 14 to 15 and Aura of Courage gets pushed to 14. Honestly, I know that sucks but otherwise they'll need to make another new feature for Paladins. They did it in the UA so it could happen and then this all fits better. [/LIST] [/LIST] [/SPOILER] All of this has the side effect of making every subclass have four levels worth of features. That could allow for some interesting cross class additions in the future. Particularly with level 10 being shared across all classes and two features showing up earlier and one feature happening after. [/QUOTE]
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