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Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7564386" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Just to clarify, it's not that I want to take away the skill monkey from people.</p><p></p><p>I just don't get why WotC hasn't given us a Rogue subclass that works in combat-centric campaigns, and which remains competitive in games with feats.</p><p></p><p>In other words: many campaigns heavily feature combat. Having a squishy character whose concept is to get into close combat to deliver devastating backstabs is entirely reasonable, provided that...</p><p></p><p>...those backstabs are actually devastating!</p><p></p><p>Sadly, this is not the case in 5E. Sure, <em>without</em> feats, the Rogue holds its own in combat. <span style="font-size: 10px">(Sadly, that is in comparison to fighters only, and not to the real heavy-hitters - the Paladins, Warlocks and Sorcerers)</span></p><p></p><p>But with feats Rogue DPR is very middling <span style="font-size: 10px">(since now even Fighters eclipse them)</span>. There simply are no force multipliers that work on sneak damage, except Haste and Haste-like effects, which I believe is unreasonable to assume is available to the average Rogue. (Not all parties feature Wizards willing to spend their only Concentration slot just to bring the Rogue up to par; magic potions are not plentiful in all campaigns).</p><p></p><p>Then, the reason to enter melee - where your squishiness is much more of a concern than at a safe range - is very questionable.</p><p></p><p>Not only that the sole benefit is two shots at getting in your sneak damage instead of one (through two-weapon fighting). And the value of this is very questionable, since if you stay at range, you are likely to gain Advantage, which more or less provides the same benefit: rolling two d20s to increase the probability one attack actually succeeds, so that you deliver your sneak damage.</p><p></p><p>Also that all your sneak & skulk abilities are severely compromised by being out in the open, in the actual melee. Your performance as a "lurker" (using the 4E term) is severly compromised if you can't stay in the shadows, close to cover. Bluntly put: you can't hide in plain sight!</p><p></p><p>So the Rogue class design leaves MUCH to be desired.</p><p></p><p>Basically, you're asked to choose between things no Rogue should have to choose between. </p><p></p><p>A minimal list to bring it up to par would include:</p><p>a) a Rogue class focused feat (which obviously only is used in games with feats, which are the games that otherwise allow Fighters to completely eclipse Rogues DPR-wise)</p><p>b) a way to reliably reach two or double sneak damage a round without either Haste or incredibly convoluted minmaxing</p><p>c) a subclass meant for the melee rogue</p><p></p><p>This does not necessarily mean three new things. </p><p></p><p>For instance, WotC could combine a+b into a feat that simplifies sneak damage into "On every attack during your own turn". This would instantly improve the DPR of melee rogues sufficiently to justify the risks and drawbacks of melee (two-weapon fighting), while still retaining the (remote) hope of out-of-turn sneak damage.</p><p></p><p>Or, b+c through a subclass that does get Extra Attack and sneak damage on each melee attack.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7564386, member: 12731"] Just to clarify, it's not that I want to take away the skill monkey from people. I just don't get why WotC hasn't given us a Rogue subclass that works in combat-centric campaigns, and which remains competitive in games with feats. In other words: many campaigns heavily feature combat. Having a squishy character whose concept is to get into close combat to deliver devastating backstabs is entirely reasonable, provided that... ...those backstabs are actually devastating! Sadly, this is not the case in 5E. Sure, [I]without[/I] feats, the Rogue holds its own in combat. [SIZE=2](Sadly, that is in comparison to fighters only, and not to the real heavy-hitters - the Paladins, Warlocks and Sorcerers)[/SIZE] But with feats Rogue DPR is very middling [SIZE=2](since now even Fighters eclipse them)[/SIZE]. There simply are no force multipliers that work on sneak damage, except Haste and Haste-like effects, which I believe is unreasonable to assume is available to the average Rogue. (Not all parties feature Wizards willing to spend their only Concentration slot just to bring the Rogue up to par; magic potions are not plentiful in all campaigns). Then, the reason to enter melee - where your squishiness is much more of a concern than at a safe range - is very questionable. Not only that the sole benefit is two shots at getting in your sneak damage instead of one (through two-weapon fighting). And the value of this is very questionable, since if you stay at range, you are likely to gain Advantage, which more or less provides the same benefit: rolling two d20s to increase the probability one attack actually succeeds, so that you deliver your sneak damage. Also that all your sneak & skulk abilities are severely compromised by being out in the open, in the actual melee. Your performance as a "lurker" (using the 4E term) is severly compromised if you can't stay in the shadows, close to cover. Bluntly put: you can't hide in plain sight! So the Rogue class design leaves MUCH to be desired. Basically, you're asked to choose between things no Rogue should have to choose between. A minimal list to bring it up to par would include: a) a Rogue class focused feat (which obviously only is used in games with feats, which are the games that otherwise allow Fighters to completely eclipse Rogues DPR-wise) b) a way to reliably reach two or double sneak damage a round without either Haste or incredibly convoluted minmaxing c) a subclass meant for the melee rogue This does not necessarily mean three new things. For instance, WotC could combine a+b into a feat that simplifies sneak damage into "On every attack during your own turn". This would instantly improve the DPR of melee rogues sufficiently to justify the risks and drawbacks of melee (two-weapon fighting), while still retaining the (remote) hope of out-of-turn sneak damage. Or, b+c through a subclass that does get Extra Attack and sneak damage on each melee attack. [/QUOTE]
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