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Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue
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<blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 7564512" data-attributes="member: 6704184"><p>None of that is my intent. I should have been clearer, but I was trying to invite you to provide some sort of analysis of the numbers showing the sort of incredible damage deficit you're seeing, because we can't really get anywhere if we don't even have a common starting point. It may be that the difference between our games means that a single subclass or variant feature can't provide a strong DPR lurker experience for both of us that is balanced in both our games, or it may be that we aren't as far apart as it seems. I've no clue which it is, as of right now. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd rather not put class specific feats into the game, but that might be a simple way to build a subclasses primary feature. </p><p></p><p> That isn't the piont of the thread, which I've explained multiple times. It isn't presented as the point of the thread in the OP. The point is to make a rogue that isn't 90% out of combat focused, for rogue players in combat heavy campaigns. None of my suggestions make a rogue that is entirely combat focused, either. It's still the most out of combat capable non-spellcaster in the game, even with all my preliminary suggestions turned on. </p><p></p><p>If the thing I didn't suggest doesn't spark inspiration, maybe the things I did say will. Like, "skull cracking leg breaker", "scary enforcer that frightens and has advantage in and out of combat against frightened creatures", or "brutally efficient killer who [mechanical shorthand for using a wider set of weapons to kill things with underhanded tactics]". </p><p></p><p>A lot of the mechanical ideas I threw out in the OP are damage related, because that is the deficit <em>mechanically</em> for players that want to play rogues in more combat focused games. They aren't wrong about DnD. The game won't blow up in their faces if the skill god class is 10% more combat focused. </p><p></p><p> I assume you mean that it will work as a multiclass build. OK? I don't think that's inherently broken, so let's talk about how to make it work. What pitfalls are you actually anticipating there? </p><p></p><p></p><p>And is there something wrong, in your view, with options that make a Str focused rogue not fall behind other rogues? Not being facetious or rhetorical. </p><p></p><p> So, you agree with the bulk of my suggestions on building an enforcer rogue. I wouldn't limit it to staves and clubs, but rather include longswords (still less damage than two rapiers, comparable to two shortswords), spears, handaxes, and probably a couple others. </p><p></p><p> as long as "for halflings/dwarves" you don't mean only for them, yeah. Agreed. </p><p></p><p> We agree on most of that, though I think it's simpler to just let them treat thrown weapons as ranged weapons, and I don't think you can give them both that and extra attacks, unless the extra attack is their capstone. Still, this is getting somewhere. </p><p></p><p>I could also see this being an overall ranged rogue, with a choice at level 3 between getting bow goodies or thrown weapon goodies, and a second level 3 feature that applies regardless, that ignores disadvantage on ranged attacks while in melee. A bit like the totem barbarian, mechanically. </p><p></p><p> Looking at a lot of the other rogue subclasses, the capstone needs to have strong combat power, not just utility, but I'm fine with just about any expression of that, as long as it's a significant boost, on part with what Theif, Arcane Trickster, and Swashbuckler, get. Or on par with what Assassin gets in games that actually allow the assassin to play how a player who chooses the assassin in order to play a lethal killer wants it to play. </p><p></p><p></p><p> I explicitly don't do that. I suggest shifting Expertise to be half about skills and half about combat. </p><p></p><p> I agree. I don't understand why you keep making this counter argument to an argument I've never made. </p><p></p><p> Respectfully, I don't care at all, and I will never care <em>at all</em>, about tradition. Ever. AFAIC, the fact that it used to be backstab is completely irrelevant to a discussion about how it should work now. </p><p></p><p>Beyond that, it's moot, anyway. It already very much is not backstab. That ship sailed 20 years ago. It's gone. It made port in the OSR archipelago, where it is very welcome and loved and well cared for. IMO, we are better of without it. </p><p></p><p>Having said all that, what's the story with any weapon? </p><p></p><p>Most importantly, why do you keep using greataxes when I've already reiterated that greataxes aren't even on the table? If you've the same problem with glaives on a rogue, use that, since it was one of my examples in the OP. It'd difficult for me to want to engage with your point when you make it by hyperbolising with the use of an example that I've already said isn't on the table. </p><p></p><p> Restrictions require greater need than allowance, IMO. What is the benefit of not allowing them?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="doctorbadwolf, post: 7564512, member: 6704184"] None of that is my intent. I should have been clearer, but I was trying to invite you to provide some sort of analysis of the numbers showing the sort of incredible damage deficit you're seeing, because we can't really get anywhere if we don't even have a common starting point. It may be that the difference between our games means that a single subclass or variant feature can't provide a strong DPR lurker experience for both of us that is balanced in both our games, or it may be that we aren't as far apart as it seems. I've no clue which it is, as of right now. I'd rather not put class specific feats into the game, but that might be a simple way to build a subclasses primary feature. That isn't the piont of the thread, which I've explained multiple times. It isn't presented as the point of the thread in the OP. The point is to make a rogue that isn't 90% out of combat focused, for rogue players in combat heavy campaigns. None of my suggestions make a rogue that is entirely combat focused, either. It's still the most out of combat capable non-spellcaster in the game, even with all my preliminary suggestions turned on. If the thing I didn't suggest doesn't spark inspiration, maybe the things I did say will. Like, "skull cracking leg breaker", "scary enforcer that frightens and has advantage in and out of combat against frightened creatures", or "brutally efficient killer who [mechanical shorthand for using a wider set of weapons to kill things with underhanded tactics]". A lot of the mechanical ideas I threw out in the OP are damage related, because that is the deficit [I]mechanically[/I] for players that want to play rogues in more combat focused games. They aren't wrong about DnD. The game won't blow up in their faces if the skill god class is 10% more combat focused. I assume you mean that it will work as a multiclass build. OK? I don't think that's inherently broken, so let's talk about how to make it work. What pitfalls are you actually anticipating there? And is there something wrong, in your view, with options that make a Str focused rogue not fall behind other rogues? Not being facetious or rhetorical. So, you agree with the bulk of my suggestions on building an enforcer rogue. I wouldn't limit it to staves and clubs, but rather include longswords (still less damage than two rapiers, comparable to two shortswords), spears, handaxes, and probably a couple others. as long as "for halflings/dwarves" you don't mean only for them, yeah. Agreed. We agree on most of that, though I think it's simpler to just let them treat thrown weapons as ranged weapons, and I don't think you can give them both that and extra attacks, unless the extra attack is their capstone. Still, this is getting somewhere. I could also see this being an overall ranged rogue, with a choice at level 3 between getting bow goodies or thrown weapon goodies, and a second level 3 feature that applies regardless, that ignores disadvantage on ranged attacks while in melee. A bit like the totem barbarian, mechanically. Looking at a lot of the other rogue subclasses, the capstone needs to have strong combat power, not just utility, but I'm fine with just about any expression of that, as long as it's a significant boost, on part with what Theif, Arcane Trickster, and Swashbuckler, get. Or on par with what Assassin gets in games that actually allow the assassin to play how a player who chooses the assassin in order to play a lethal killer wants it to play. I explicitly don't do that. I suggest shifting Expertise to be half about skills and half about combat. I agree. I don't understand why you keep making this counter argument to an argument I've never made. Respectfully, I don't care at all, and I will never care [I]at all[/I], about tradition. Ever. AFAIC, the fact that it used to be backstab is completely irrelevant to a discussion about how it should work now. Beyond that, it's moot, anyway. It already very much is not backstab. That ship sailed 20 years ago. It's gone. It made port in the OSR archipelago, where it is very welcome and loved and well cared for. IMO, we are better of without it. Having said all that, what's the story with any weapon? Most importantly, why do you keep using greataxes when I've already reiterated that greataxes aren't even on the table? If you've the same problem with glaives on a rogue, use that, since it was one of my examples in the OP. It'd difficult for me to want to engage with your point when you make it by hyperbolising with the use of an example that I've already said isn't on the table. Restrictions require greater need than allowance, IMO. What is the benefit of not allowing them? [/QUOTE]
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