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General Tabletop Discussion
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Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue
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<blockquote data-quote="Cap'n Kobold" data-source="post: 7564699" data-attributes="member: 6802951"><p>I think that this might be the source of the disconnect that you're having with a lot of the people trying to help you. Unless its just hyperbole, where is that 90% figure coming from? Most of the class abilities are directly combat-focused or usable in combat. The rogue is more capable out of combat than the other martial classes, but it currently isn't paying much in the way of combat capability to do so. </p><p>Its close enough that adding more combat power would risk putting it over the more dedicated combat types, while still also being better out of combat.</p><p></p><p>Maybe some details about the specific game or group that this subclass will be used in might help. Is there a lot of optimisation? Feats and/or multiclassing? Is there much/any Social and/or exploration pillar or is it almost all combat?</p><p> </p><p> The issues that they were pointing out are based on general game mechanics, not class abilities. As they point out, the easiest way to make Str matter more and reduce reliance on Dex to keep the character more competitive would be to grant Medium armour, but you already nixed that suggestion I believe.</p><p></p><p> I just removed the Finesse requirement for Sneak attack completely. I've yet to see any problems pop up due to that houserule. I doubt that expanding the weapons in a more limited fashion would create issues.</p><p></p><p> Expertise is already usable in combat. I think that the only way to make it more usable would be to be able to add it to more combat rolls, such as initiative, hit, or damage. Hit or damage might cause problems because you seem to be looking to add Str there.</p><p></p><p> You're talking about removing the skill monkeying to become better in combat. The issue I see there is that most of the skill monkeying of the Rogue are base class features, not subclass capabilities. </p><p>However, since this is a homebrew subclass designed for a specific table, there is no reason that you can't actually remove base class features. - Which would allow removing some of the skill capabilities that make the Rogue so dominant in that area. Dropping the subclass to Champion-levels of out of combat capabilities would allow improvement to Champion-levels of combat capability. I think that currently the Rogue is only about 75-80% of their combat capability, so removing the extra skills, reliable talent and expertise should balance out a boost in DPR to bring them up to 95% ish for example.</p><p></p><p> They are still trying to help you out, they, are (just like myself and many others it appears) just having difficulty getting our heads around what you are asking for and how to mechanically express it in a balanced fashion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cap'n Kobold, post: 7564699, member: 6802951"] I think that this might be the source of the disconnect that you're having with a lot of the people trying to help you. Unless its just hyperbole, where is that 90% figure coming from? Most of the class abilities are directly combat-focused or usable in combat. The rogue is more capable out of combat than the other martial classes, but it currently isn't paying much in the way of combat capability to do so. Its close enough that adding more combat power would risk putting it over the more dedicated combat types, while still also being better out of combat. Maybe some details about the specific game or group that this subclass will be used in might help. Is there a lot of optimisation? Feats and/or multiclassing? Is there much/any Social and/or exploration pillar or is it almost all combat? The issues that they were pointing out are based on general game mechanics, not class abilities. As they point out, the easiest way to make Str matter more and reduce reliance on Dex to keep the character more competitive would be to grant Medium armour, but you already nixed that suggestion I believe. I just removed the Finesse requirement for Sneak attack completely. I've yet to see any problems pop up due to that houserule. I doubt that expanding the weapons in a more limited fashion would create issues. Expertise is already usable in combat. I think that the only way to make it more usable would be to be able to add it to more combat rolls, such as initiative, hit, or damage. Hit or damage might cause problems because you seem to be looking to add Str there. You're talking about removing the skill monkeying to become better in combat. The issue I see there is that most of the skill monkeying of the Rogue are base class features, not subclass capabilities. However, since this is a homebrew subclass designed for a specific table, there is no reason that you can't actually remove base class features. - Which would allow removing some of the skill capabilities that make the Rogue so dominant in that area. Dropping the subclass to Champion-levels of out of combat capabilities would allow improvement to Champion-levels of combat capability. I think that currently the Rogue is only about 75-80% of their combat capability, so removing the extra skills, reliable talent and expertise should balance out a boost in DPR to bring them up to 95% ish for example. They are still trying to help you out, they, are (just like myself and many others it appears) just having difficulty getting our heads around what you are asking for and how to mechanically express it in a balanced fashion. [/QUOTE]
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