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[Very Long] Combat as Sport vs. Combat as War: a Key Difference in D&D Play Styles...
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<blockquote data-quote="haakon1" data-source="post: 5807998" data-attributes="member: 25619"><p>Got it. You think 3e and all versions of D&D before 4e are bad, with primitive, poorly written unbalanced rules that supported only CaW, which you think is no fun. OK, you're entitled to your opinion, and you are surely right (and not alone in your opinion) that the older editions didn't give you what you wanted.</p><p></p><p>But you know what? Grognards like playing traditonal D&D, and we just don't like 4e. We like CaW, and like the old rules that we think better support it.</p><p> </p><p>Many of us dislike the "modern" redesign goals of 4e, like balance and rechargeable powers. We actually think WOTC's goals in 4e were counterproductive for what we want from traditional D&D. They took out the resource management/logistics by making spells/powers recharge. They took out the flavor differences between character classes by making every class have spells/powers that were mechanically similar -- even the warrior classes essentially are spellcasters now, and there's no Vancian magic. They took out tradeoffs between classes dating back to AD&D, when Rangers clearly rocked at 1st level (2d8 hit points) and Wizards were weak to start, but at higher level, Wizards came into their own, if they survived -- the class and race differences had already been filed down by 3e, but 4e obliterated them in the name of balance. And WOTC also tried to get rid of the "danger" we craved, because no one likes having a character die -- no more "save or die" effects, no need for a cleric to heal, and advice to DM's about "balanced" (there's that word again!) treasure and equipment, rules about what gear you can have at what level, advice that you should skip the "boring" stuff like dungeon crawling or talking to the gateguards, etc.</p><p> </p><p>The thing is, both sets of opinions are strongly held. People who dislike traditional D&D or dislike 4e have had 4 years of edition wars to reconsider their opinions, and I don't think anyone is going to convert at this late stage, especially by being told "what you are doing is wrong". </p><p></p><p>It's fine for people to say what they like, and for people to say what they don't like, but what's the point of arguing with other people's opinions and telling them they should think the opposite?</p><p></p><p>Both sides know what they want, and actually want what they want. Let's just agree to disagree.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="haakon1, post: 5807998, member: 25619"] Got it. You think 3e and all versions of D&D before 4e are bad, with primitive, poorly written unbalanced rules that supported only CaW, which you think is no fun. OK, you're entitled to your opinion, and you are surely right (and not alone in your opinion) that the older editions didn't give you what you wanted. But you know what? Grognards like playing traditonal D&D, and we just don't like 4e. We like CaW, and like the old rules that we think better support it. Many of us dislike the "modern" redesign goals of 4e, like balance and rechargeable powers. We actually think WOTC's goals in 4e were counterproductive for what we want from traditional D&D. They took out the resource management/logistics by making spells/powers recharge. They took out the flavor differences between character classes by making every class have spells/powers that were mechanically similar -- even the warrior classes essentially are spellcasters now, and there's no Vancian magic. They took out tradeoffs between classes dating back to AD&D, when Rangers clearly rocked at 1st level (2d8 hit points) and Wizards were weak to start, but at higher level, Wizards came into their own, if they survived -- the class and race differences had already been filed down by 3e, but 4e obliterated them in the name of balance. And WOTC also tried to get rid of the "danger" we craved, because no one likes having a character die -- no more "save or die" effects, no need for a cleric to heal, and advice to DM's about "balanced" (there's that word again!) treasure and equipment, rules about what gear you can have at what level, advice that you should skip the "boring" stuff like dungeon crawling or talking to the gateguards, etc. The thing is, both sets of opinions are strongly held. People who dislike traditional D&D or dislike 4e have had 4 years of edition wars to reconsider their opinions, and I don't think anyone is going to convert at this late stage, especially by being told "what you are doing is wrong". It's fine for people to say what they like, and for people to say what they don't like, but what's the point of arguing with other people's opinions and telling them they should think the opposite? Both sides know what they want, and actually want what they want. Let's just agree to disagree. [/QUOTE]
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[Very Long] Combat as Sport vs. Combat as War: a Key Difference in D&D Play Styles...
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