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[Very Long] Combat as Sport vs. Combat as War: a Key Difference in D&D Play Styles...
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5812224" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I think almost everyone is. However I and many others think that so-called 'disassociated mechanics' are a steaming pile of ** <span style="color: Red">** moderate your language please **</span> made up by someone as an excuse for a prejudice rather than an explanation.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>You have that almost precisely backwards. What that subset of encounters requires is <em>good information</em>. It is dead easy to tell a group of PCs that three dozen ogres, one with a pet dragon are approaching their settlement in 4e. That's what I'm doing now. It's Combat as War with the PCs sneak attacking and using hit-and-fade tactics, traps, stakes in the riverbed. Last fight was a hit and run on a column of ogres - with covering fire from the far side of the riverbank. They killed one ogre before he had a chance to act, and the second in the first round. (More turned up).</p><p> </p><p>Combat as war is trivial in a combat as sport system. Multiply the size of the enemy by an order of magnitude and let the PCs know the rewards for failure are ... bad. You might not have all the props for combat-as-war that 3e PCs leant on. But those are simply props.</p><p> </p><p>On the other hand combat as sport is near impossible in a combat as war system. Combat as sport requires a decent indication of outcomes in advance. And a certain resistance to PC death. If one errant critical hit can kill a PC then they will treat it as war because they don't want to take that risk. So you need to neuter the chance of the bad guys getting a critical hit. And need a clear idea of the outcome.</p><p> </p><p>Shorter me: It's easy to turn combat-as-sport into combat-as-war. Give the bad guys bigger hammers. The ideas then flow from avoiding those hammers. Turning combat-as-war into combat-as-sport requires replacing the enemy swords with LARP weapons - which turns the whole thing into a farce. (Or an explicit arena match).</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>This.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Why the hell haven't your characters been interested in <em>equipment optimisation</em> - y'know, things to keep them alive? You're sounding like a CaS group who just happens to play rough sports.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Yes - but we disagree strongly on what works like a spell. To me what works like a spell is <em>what the characters would see as a spell</em> - the mechanical implementation is barely relevant.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5812224, member: 87792"] I think almost everyone is. However I and many others think that so-called 'disassociated mechanics' are a steaming pile of ** [COLOR="Red"]** moderate your language please **[/COLOR] made up by someone as an excuse for a prejudice rather than an explanation. You have that almost precisely backwards. What that subset of encounters requires is [I]good information[/I]. It is dead easy to tell a group of PCs that three dozen ogres, one with a pet dragon are approaching their settlement in 4e. That's what I'm doing now. It's Combat as War with the PCs sneak attacking and using hit-and-fade tactics, traps, stakes in the riverbed. Last fight was a hit and run on a column of ogres - with covering fire from the far side of the riverbank. They killed one ogre before he had a chance to act, and the second in the first round. (More turned up). Combat as war is trivial in a combat as sport system. Multiply the size of the enemy by an order of magnitude and let the PCs know the rewards for failure are ... bad. You might not have all the props for combat-as-war that 3e PCs leant on. But those are simply props. On the other hand combat as sport is near impossible in a combat as war system. Combat as sport requires a decent indication of outcomes in advance. And a certain resistance to PC death. If one errant critical hit can kill a PC then they will treat it as war because they don't want to take that risk. So you need to neuter the chance of the bad guys getting a critical hit. And need a clear idea of the outcome. Shorter me: It's easy to turn combat-as-sport into combat-as-war. Give the bad guys bigger hammers. The ideas then flow from avoiding those hammers. Turning combat-as-war into combat-as-sport requires replacing the enemy swords with LARP weapons - which turns the whole thing into a farce. (Or an explicit arena match). This. Why the hell haven't your characters been interested in [I]equipment optimisation[/I] - y'know, things to keep them alive? You're sounding like a CaS group who just happens to play rough sports. Yes - but we disagree strongly on what works like a spell. To me what works like a spell is [I]what the characters would see as a spell[/I] - the mechanical implementation is barely relevant. [/QUOTE]
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