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[Very Long] Combat as Sport vs. Combat as War: a Key Difference in D&D Play Styles...
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7548702" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I haven't really RUN 5e and certainly never ran a 5e sandbox, but my experience there is that if the overall CR difference is too much, then clearly the party is going down. That can also happen when there are certain types of non-viable tactical situations (like for instance in the 5e campaign we ran our party was set on by a wandering dragon in the wilderness. Since none of the PCs could fly there was no real hope of winning that fight). The upshot being, 5e may be a little more tolerant than 4e in terms of power disparities being gameable, but the same problems still exist.</p><p></p><p>4e has less sensitivity to power differences (and less likely reliance on specifically required techniques for defeating certain monster types) than 3e. So any argument by which 3e is suitable for sandbox makes 4e even MORE SO. If that is not true, please explain!</p><p></p><p>AD&D, and Basic and its derivatives, are all QUITE sensitive to power discrepancies. At low levels a single level difference is likely to be insurmountable if combat happens. This is often mitigated somewhat by casters being able to 'nova' but doing so in the wilderness is certainly problematic (IE you will now be without magic for several encounter checks potentially). There are also a lot of cases where lack of a certain type of magic or other nostrum is a fatal deficiency (the oft observed 'never go without a cleric rule' for example). In higher level play, or if the DM gives out lots of magic then things get a little less acute. </p><p></p><p>Now, again, there are differences in culture and process of play which make sandbox more routine and more integrated with 'classic' D&D play than it is with 4e (and I would say also 3.x and 5e, though maybe not as much). 4e simply has no rules for reactions, wandering monster checks, wilderness or dungeon exploration rule frameworks, etc. Of course you can use resources from other editions or emulate them, but this is a fair observation. 4e isn't MADE FOR sandbox play. I still maintain that nothing in its fundamental rules architecture and the resulting play at the table makes it particularly less suitable however. Again, sandbox doesn't work in the way many of its proponents envisage (IE as some sort of pure setup where the DM is an entirely neutral agenda-less arbiter adjudicating an entirely pre/random generated environment) in ANY edition, so saying it doesn't really work that way in 4e is not especially a good argument about 4e per se.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7548702, member: 82106"] I haven't really RUN 5e and certainly never ran a 5e sandbox, but my experience there is that if the overall CR difference is too much, then clearly the party is going down. That can also happen when there are certain types of non-viable tactical situations (like for instance in the 5e campaign we ran our party was set on by a wandering dragon in the wilderness. Since none of the PCs could fly there was no real hope of winning that fight). The upshot being, 5e may be a little more tolerant than 4e in terms of power disparities being gameable, but the same problems still exist. 4e has less sensitivity to power differences (and less likely reliance on specifically required techniques for defeating certain monster types) than 3e. So any argument by which 3e is suitable for sandbox makes 4e even MORE SO. If that is not true, please explain! AD&D, and Basic and its derivatives, are all QUITE sensitive to power discrepancies. At low levels a single level difference is likely to be insurmountable if combat happens. This is often mitigated somewhat by casters being able to 'nova' but doing so in the wilderness is certainly problematic (IE you will now be without magic for several encounter checks potentially). There are also a lot of cases where lack of a certain type of magic or other nostrum is a fatal deficiency (the oft observed 'never go without a cleric rule' for example). In higher level play, or if the DM gives out lots of magic then things get a little less acute. Now, again, there are differences in culture and process of play which make sandbox more routine and more integrated with 'classic' D&D play than it is with 4e (and I would say also 3.x and 5e, though maybe not as much). 4e simply has no rules for reactions, wandering monster checks, wilderness or dungeon exploration rule frameworks, etc. Of course you can use resources from other editions or emulate them, but this is a fair observation. 4e isn't MADE FOR sandbox play. I still maintain that nothing in its fundamental rules architecture and the resulting play at the table makes it particularly less suitable however. Again, sandbox doesn't work in the way many of its proponents envisage (IE as some sort of pure setup where the DM is an entirely neutral agenda-less arbiter adjudicating an entirely pre/random generated environment) in ANY edition, so saying it doesn't really work that way in 4e is not especially a good argument about 4e per se. [/QUOTE]
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